[Faterson]

Originally Posted by kguil

@demo Actually implementing ADE page numbering is simpler than what I did. However, [...] I find it to be less meaningful. In the absence of page maps (that many EPUBs do not have) ADE defines a page as 1024 characters.

That is, in my opinion, far more meaningful than what you're giving us now, Kris. What you're giving us now is simply a better camouflage of the fake page counts. The fake nature of ADE's page counts is immediately obvious, and so is the fake nature of Kindle's "locations"; you're simply masking the fake nature of Marvin's current "pages in book" counts a bit better. But that is no solution, in my opinion. Here is what I said on this subject earlier tonight on Facebook:

To me, this is a biggie, and I find the current solution offered by Marvin totally unsatisfactory and (my apologies) amateurish. I'm a professional translator and let me tell you that basing page counts (even Marvin's fake page counts) on numbers of words is totally misguided. I read books in 8 different languages in Marvin, and of course a language like (for example) German has substantially longer words than (for example) English with its brief words. So, to base any calculation of "pages" (even fake, imaginary pages) on word counts is as faux as it can get. Does it mean now that German pages are longer than English pages? Of course not, which is why for fake pages, ADE's solution of 1024 characters per (fake) page is clearly superior over Marvin's current (fake) solution. Even if Kris allows us to change the number of words used for the calculation, this won't help a single bit because – as explained above – the entire concept is flawed, and I read books simultaneously in various languages every day. Really the only satisfactory solution, to me, is to give us real-life page/screen numbers, that is actual page flips on the particular reading device, just like Marvin gives us those for "pages in chapter". (I'm taking a lot of heat and abuse over on MobileRead for standing up for what I find to be the correct approach, but that's standard for online discussions. Abusing the messenger won't resolve the fundamental flaw in Marvin discussed here, though.)

Originally Posted by JSWolf

10% is a novella is very different than 10% of a novel. So just having % is not a good idea. What would be best is number of screens until the end of the chapter, ADE page numbers for the entire book, and %. Then everyone has something that works.

Not really – you're forgetting the crucial metric: "pages [left] in book", and I mean genuine pages (= screen flips), not the current Marvin fake page counts, and not ADE fake page counts, either.

As I mentioned, each of us is different, so each of us would likely prefer something else. Marvin will soon give us the option to customize our headers and footers, so all I'm asking of Kris is to put "pages [left] in book" among the available options, where "pages in book" would work consistently at long last throughout Marvin – that is, in the same way that "pages in chapter" already works in Marvin now.

Originally Posted by JKenP

I'd much rather know I have read 10% of the book. That could be byte based. Illustrations and whatever my corrupt it a bit but what the hey; it at least has a bit more meaning for most ebooks.

I don't agree percentages should be byte-based; especially in books with many illustrations (such as the Thurber volume I spoke of in the opening post), this might distort the "percentage read" metric a lot.

I believe for percentage read, word count is the way to go. It definitely isn't for (fake) page counts, which is what Marvin does now.

I also believe Marvin should give us the option to display decimal numbers (1 or 2 decimal numbers) for the "percentage read" metric. For extremely long books, it sometimes takes flipping many pages before you see the percentage drop by even 1. Therefore, for such books, simply seeing 72% isn't enough. Moon+ Reader Pro on Android displays one decimal number by default (72.6%). I would appreciate if Marvin gave us the option to display either no decimal number for "percentage read" (72% – the current only option in Marvin), or 1 decimal number (72.6% – Moon's only option), or 2 decimal numbers (72.68% – that would be my pick). Every Marvin user could choose whatever percentage display option suits them best.

Originally Posted by dwig

There are no true pages in ebooks, period. Any reference to pages is either a faux "page", a screen count, or a reference to one specific print edition.

However, in terms of being fake, what Marvin is giving us now as the only option is far more fake than the natural scenario: you flip a page, and you see the page count go down by 1. Every time, on every reading device, regardless of its screen size. What could be more natural? Until Marvin gives us this option for page counts, it will never be fully satisfactory to me (never 5-star software). As I mentioned, it's shockingly inconsistent that for "pages in chapter", Marvin does use the "real-life", device-specific page numbering, while for "pages in book", it suddenly switches to those fake, arbitrary page counts.

Originally Posted by dwig

In a perfect world, a reader/app would give the user a choice in prefs to choose between percentage, this app's legacy paging, ADE compliant paging, a custom word or character per page option along, a reference to a specific print edition if one exists, and perhaps a Kindle-like Location value along with options for how and when this info is displayed. This isn't a perfect world so you choose your reader/app and live with its progress information.

Eh??? You've got to be kidding. What's the use of providing user feedback, then, if users are only expected to meekly accept whatever they are fed by software developers? Of course it does make sense to provide feedback to software developers, so that they can improve their software based on what users expect from the software.

Originally Posted by ShellShock

So this is a "crucial issue" but someone else had to point it out to you? How do you justify kicking up such a big fuss over something that you were totally oblivious to?

Next time, please read the post you are replying to more carefully, before berating someone. As I clearly said, I've been aware of the issue all along; I reported the buggy "pages in book" counts to Kris several weeks ago. I even sent him an entire EPUB e-book from my collection so that he can see that "pages in book" counts just don't work properly at all in Marvin 3. However (as I said in the opening post), I thought this was due to the malformatting of the particular EPUB files I'm reading in Marvin right now. Ian on Facebook merely opened my eyes in that I can now see that the "pages in book" counts are incorrect in all e-books in Marvin 3, even in correctly formatted ones. I never would have believed that Kris would have chosen such a buggy, inferior solution (= fully arbitrary, fake page counts) for Marvin 3 as the default and, in fact, the only current option.

By all means: if Marvin also gives us alternative methods for "pages in book" counts (especially the one I'm calling "natural", "real-life" = each screen flip equals a page turn), then I'm perfectly fine with the fake page counts being available in Marvin as well ("Marvin fake", "ADE fake" – either or both would be fine with me as options, because I wouldn't use either). What is unbearable, though, is when the current fake page counts are the only option in Marvin.

Originally Posted by ichbindasauge

Words like "bogus", "height of absurdity", "major flaw, "absurd, "unbearable", "hell" and some of the other expressions and smilies you are using, are not what I would call "extremely polite"...

That's your interpretation. I see nothing wrong with those epithets. If I do believe that Marvin's current treatment of "pages in book" is bogus, that it is the height of absurdity, that it is unbearable, and so on, why should I not say so openly and sincerely? It's not an attack on anyone, but my honest appraisal of some of the current flaws in Marvin. If you or anyone else is offended by my honest appraisal of Marvin, that is really something for you and those folks to deal with. I'm just not going to dissemble here and talk in roundabout, indirect ways, although the current prevailing spirit of political correctness certainly would like to force everyone to be insincere, making sincerity and directness of speech a crime... I grew up under the Communist regime where you were sent to jail for speaking your mind, and I'm not going back to that mentality – sorry.

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Would you go up to a mother and tell her that her baby is the ugliest baby you have ever seen because it has blond hair and you think that black hair looks better?

Don't be ridiculous, please. Software creations are no humans – they are just products. Anyone who's active in the creative business (and I am active in the creative business myself) must not be thin-skinned. When you're putting out your product to the public, you must accept any criticisms of your product that you may encounter, if that product turns out to be unsatisfactory to some members of your audience. And because no one can make everyone happy all the time, there will always be some negative feedback, regardless of what you do.