[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

The DX is no ePUB reader, so why should it use the ncx? I know ePUB3 does not use the ncx anymore, and I feel it is a bad change...

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Somewhere in this discussion, the Amazon formatting guidelines came up. Hence Turtle's reply about the "thousands of devices that don't display the NCX," and my subsequent response about the DX. I know we're in the ePUB sub-forum, but unless I'm daft, MOBI/AZW/KF8/KFX came into this somehow...

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I have seen a few books from New York publishers with exactly that at the opening page, plus probably a warning that the Goths will tear me apart if I pirate the book, and always an invitation to sign up for the mailing list.

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Personally, I like the html TOC for its sales potential on Amazon's Look Inside sample. I tailor my chapter titles with Look Inside in mind. But I too use the virtual (NCX) index on my Fire tablet and my iPhone.

We do this all the time--the short TOC in the front, particularly for endlessly long "Chap 1, Chap 2..." TOC's.

You assert this bit about the Fire using the NCX, all the time. I suppose, because I haven't seen a book that's created sans a toc.html, I don't notice this behavior.

Originally Posted by DaleDe

It is not DX that used NCX but the Amazon converter that will use it to create a Mobi TOC. ePub 3, I believe, is breaking its connection with DAISY by replacing the NCX with a more HTML like syntax. If you hand code your ePub, then ePub 3 is easier to create and it is still used outside the document like the older NCX was. To the eBook Reader they can look the same. There is no requirement in ePub 3 to have an inline TOC.

The presence of an HTML TOC is not the correct term for ePub 3 since both are using HTML syntax although the semantics tags are new to HTML5. Note that similar semantics can be used to create a page list as well.

Dale

Dale, which KG are you using? I must have missed that trick (building the toc.html from the NCX). Did you mean the toc nav elements for ePUB3?

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That's a very bad idea. The problem is a lot of samples are just too short to be of use and the ToC is useless in a sample and just takes up space. So if there is no inline ToC, then there will be more of the actual book to be able to be sampled.

Yes, but that's JUST YOUR OPINION, Wolfie, dear. Nor is a TOC useless in a sample for the potential buyer that wants to get an idea of length therefrom, or for those authors that have clever TOC titles.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What programs ignore the NCX ToC?

LOTS of Amazon readers do.

The way I'd do an inline ToC is to put it at the back of the ePub if the ePub was being used to create Kindle eBooks. For when the eBook is being read as ePub, the inline ToC would be removed. The problem with a ToC at the front is it takes up too much room from a sample so you get less of the book to read. A lot of samples are too small and the more crud you can do away with before the actually text, the more people can read of your sample.

Didn't you just say this? You are, according to Amazon guidelines, not to put the TOC at the rear:

Originally Posted by Amazon Publishing Guidelines 2015-3

3.3.6 TOC Guideline #6: Place the TOC at the Front of the Book
Place the HTML TOC towards the beginning of the book and not at the end of the book. This ensures that a customer paging through the book from the beginning encounters the TOC naturally. Incorrect placement of the TOC affects the accuracy of the “Last Page Read” feature. Correct placement ensures that the TOC appears in sample downloads of the book.

[BOLD emphasis added]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I didn't think Kindlegen used the NCX ToC to create an inline ToC for Mobi & KF8. I thought you needed an inline ToC because Amazon doesn't want to use the NCX to generate a ToC from.

Hmmm. Inquiring minds want to know this, too. Not that it doesn't "want" to; simply that, AFAIK, it doesn't. However, if Dale is right, I'll learn me sumpin' today. :-)

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I guess it depends on which KindleGen you use.

Dale

Dying for your input on this, pls? If we've remained too stuck in our ways, I'd certainly love to know.

Hitch