MobileRead Forums - View Single Post

Hitch · 10-01-2015, 09:04 PM

Really, I should go all rant-y about this on one of the bookmaking forums, because the folks there would understand this, but a) it's print, and b) this is de place to rant:

I have a client who's "in the biz" (publishing, editorial services), and for whom we've made a big reference-type book. Years of blog entries, crafted into one big eBook. Hooray.

Now, he's decided he's going to do a print copy. Fine. He's got a friend, who's offered to do the print layout for FREEBS. Alrighty. You know, I'm as cheap as the next person, in terms of not liking to spend dough, so...I get it. I really don't mind him going with her, instead of hiring us. I mean it.

BUT...indeed, I get a call. The freeber (as this person shall herein be called) has called HIM, and is saying "uh, this gorgeous 13-page index I created for you, I'm having trouble getting the PAGE NUMBERS to match." (Danger, Danger Will Robinson!! Danger!!)

I instantly know what's coming. I ask, "So-and-so, is Freeber, perchance, doing your print book layout...in WORD? And--and--did she manually TYPE the index?" Now, I don't know WHY I bloody bother to ask any more, but...

Sure enough, he sends me the files today. First, is an email, forwarded from him to me, with his discussions today with her. She got a quote from an Indian company to "do" the Index (which again--the entries are already typed, right), but the pricing does not include putting in the page numbers." (Uh...so, then, as she's already typed the index entries...what DOES it include? If she'd asked me, I'd have told her that Indian firms rather notoriously don't include the page numbers in indices. They create concordances, more or less, sans page numbers, and that's what you get.)

Now, this is after I tell him, yesterday, that general "make index" pricing in the trades is $5/page, for each page of the book in the body (not counting frontmatter, etc.). I still don't mind that he's trying to do this as cheaply as possible, 'cuz, hey, I'm in business, too. Everybody gotta eat. His book has 80K words, so, ~300 pages, plus or minus, he's going to be getting off uber-cheap, if he can get it done for $500-$1000. Given that the entries are already typed (if I had seen this yesterday), I'd have told him, it's closer to $3.xx/page, if you already have the list.

So anyway, I get the files. {SIGH}

Yes, the book "final" document, the quasi-index, etc., are all in WORD.
Yes, she's used a Createspace template.
Yes, she's created a separate Index document--by TYPING IT MANUALLY.
No, she did NOT use the built-in cross-referencing feature, that one uses, to create Indices, in Word.
No, she did NOT use STYLES.
In fact, she tells him (in yon forwarded emails) that she "just learned about Styles when [she] was nearly done." (AAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, what's in this bloody file, then????!!!!! Watch out, Will Robinson, make room in the escape pod!)
And, yes, Virginia, there is a Table of Contents--also TYPED BY HAND IN A TABLE.

So, yon book--which needs fixing, AFFORDABLY, mind you--has a 13-page, two column index (how many thousand entries is that????) which is, right now, worthless. The TOC is, again, worthless, unless you want to sit there and play whack-a-mole, each and every time you make changes to this thing. She didn't use STYLES, or HEADINGS, so...can't make another TOC (hundreds of sections, remember) easily, like any twit with Google can learn how to do, in about TEN MINUTES, if she'd bothered to look.

I need to emphasize: both of these people, mind you, are publishing professionals, BOTH having spent LIFETIMES in the biz. BOTH of them.

And he asks me, "well, isn't there a program that will JUST put the page numbers in?" I nearly lost it. I said, "YEAH, if she'd done it RIGHT from the damn beginning, there IS."

Worse, he tells me, "I know that there must be some easy way to do this, because otherwise, nobody would ever self-publish. They couldn't afford it." I mean...no s**t! That's why word-processors have ALL THOSE BUILT-IN FUNCTIONS. If that's what you're using to make your PDF, or whatever. That's why grownups use at LEAST MS Publisher, not WORD, to create book documents for printers.

Can I whip up a concordance document, take the worthless typed list, and then make a new index? Yes, I can. But somebody STILL will have to decide about each and every resulting entry, vis-a-vis the search results. An automated Concordance, from a list, is still just a search result--uncurated. The whole entire POINT of an index, mind you, even in eBooks--curation. And, as neither of them, obviously, have a single bloody CLUE about how the cross-references get put IN, how on earth can either one of THEM do the subsequently necessary PRUNING, to make the Index wieldy, instead of unwieldy? (No arguments. If a thing can be UNwieldy, it must also have a wieldy side. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.)

Somebody will STILL have to re-do all, all, all (more than 800) sub-headings in the TOC into STYLES, in the actual book document, so that the TOC will build itself (so that otherwise, you don't end up screwed when you output a PDF, for CS, playing aforementioned whack-a-mole, with changing page numbers, because, again: this isn't INDD, it's WORD). There's not any magic way to fix this damned thing, without human hands and eyes and brains.

I just don't get it. I do not understand the utter lack of curiosity in learning one's tools. I don't understand how an EDITOR could possibly NOT KNOW what it takes, to make an index, automatically (sort of) in Word, marking EACH ENTRY that needs to be included. I don't understand how he could NOT know what self-publishing a printed reference book really costs, for professional assistance. I don't know how another publishing professional could POSSIBLY THINK that laying out a reference book (about publishing, mind you!!!) in WORD is the right thing to do, nor how she never bothered, in DECADES, to learn how to use the damn software properly. Not even STYLES??? REALLY??

I. Do. Not. Get. How. This. Happens. I really, REALLY don't.

Hitch

10-01-2015, 09:04 PM	#26495
Hitch Bookmaker & Cat Slave Posts: 11,503 Karma: 158448243 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Phoenix, AZ Device: K2, iPad, KFire, PPW, Voyage, NookColor. 2 Droid, Oasis, Boox Note2	AARRRGHGHGHGHGHGH!!! Really, I should go all rant-y about this on one of the bookmaking forums, because the folks there would understand this, but a) it's print, and b) this is de place to rant: I have a client who's "in the biz" (publishing, editorial services), and for whom we've made a big reference-type book. Years of blog entries, crafted into one big eBook. Hooray. Now, he's decided he's going to do a print copy. Fine. He's got a friend, who's offered to do the print layout for FREEBS. Alrighty. You know, I'm as cheap as the next person, in terms of not liking to spend dough, so...I get it. I really don't mind him going with her, instead of hiring us. I mean it. BUT...indeed, I get a call. The freeber (as this person shall herein be called) has called HIM, and is saying "uh, this gorgeous 13-page index I created for you, I'm having trouble getting the PAGE NUMBERS to match." (Danger, Danger Will Robinson!! Danger!!) I instantly know what's coming. I ask, "So-and-so, is Freeber, perchance, doing your print book layout...in WORD? And--and--did she manually TYPE the index?" Now, I don't know WHY I bloody bother to ask any more, but... Sure enough, he sends me the files today. First, is an email, forwarded from him to me, with his discussions today with her. She got a quote from an Indian company to "do" the Index (which again--the entries are already typed, right), but the pricing does not include putting in the page numbers." (Uh...so, then, as she's already typed the index entries...what DOES it include? If she'd asked me, I'd have told her that Indian firms rather notoriously don't include the page numbers in indices. They create concordances, more or less, sans page numbers, and that's what you get.) Now, this is after I tell him, yesterday, that general "make index" pricing in the trades is $5/page, for each page of the book in the body (not counting frontmatter, etc.). I still don't mind that he's trying to do this as cheaply as possible, 'cuz, hey, I'm in business, too. Everybody gotta eat. His book has 80K words, so, ~300 pages, plus or minus, he's going to be getting off uber-cheap, if he can get it done for $500-$1000. Given that the entries are already typed (if I had seen this yesterday), I'd have told him, it's closer to $3.xx/page, if you already have the list. So anyway, I get the files. {SIGH} Yes, the book "final" document, the quasi-index, etc., are all in WORD. Yes, she's used a Createspace template. Yes, she's created a separate Index document--by TYPING IT MANUALLY. No, she did NOT use the built-in cross-referencing feature, that one uses, to create Indices, in Word. No, she did NOT use STYLES. In fact, she tells him (in yon forwarded emails) that she "just learned about Styles when [she] was nearly done." (AAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, what's in this bloody file, then????!!!!! Watch out, Will Robinson, make room in the escape pod!) And, yes, Virginia, there is a Table of Contents--also TYPED BY HAND IN A TABLE. So, yon book--which needs fixing, AFFORDABLY, mind you--has a 13-page, two column index (how many thousand entries is that????) which is, right now, worthless. The TOC is, again, worthless, unless you want to sit there and play whack-a-mole, each and every time you make changes to this thing. She didn't use STYLES, or HEADINGS, so...can't make another TOC (hundreds of sections, remember) easily, like any twit with Google can learn how to do, in about TEN MINUTES, if she'd bothered to look. I need to emphasize: both of these people, mind you, are publishing professionals, BOTH having spent LIFETIMES in the biz. BOTH of them. And he asks me, "well, isn't there a program that will JUST put the page numbers in?" I nearly lost it. I said, "YEAH, if she'd done it RIGHT from the damn beginning, there IS." Worse, he tells me, "I know that there must be some easy way to do this, because otherwise, nobody would ever self-publish. They couldn't afford it." I mean...no st! That's why word-processors have ALL THOSE BUILT-IN FUNCTIONS*. If that's what you're using to make your PDF, or whatever. That's why grownups use at LEAST MS Publisher, not WORD, to create book documents for printers. Can I whip up a concordance document, take the worthless typed list, and then make a new index? Yes, I can. But somebody STILL will have to decide about each and every resulting entry, vis-a-vis the search results. An automated Concordance, from a list, is still just a search result--uncurated. The whole entire POINT of an index, mind you, even in eBooks--curation. And, as neither of them, obviously, have a single bloody CLUE about how the cross-references get put IN, how on earth can either one of THEM do the subsequently necessary PRUNING, to make the Index wieldy, instead of unwieldy? (No arguments. If a thing can be UNwieldy, it must also have a wieldy side. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.) Somebody will STILL have to re-do all, all, all (more than 800) sub-headings in the TOC into STYLES, in the actual book document, so that the TOC will build itself (so that otherwise, you don't end up screwed when you output a PDF, for CS, playing aforementioned whack-a-mole, with changing page numbers, because, again: this isn't INDD, it's WORD). There's not any magic way to fix this damned thing, without human hands and eyes and brains. I just don't get it. I do not understand the utter lack of curiosity in learning one's tools. I don't understand how an EDITOR could possibly NOT KNOW what it takes, to make an index, automatically (sort of) in Word, marking EACH ENTRY that needs to be included. I don't understand how he could NOT know what self-publishing a printed reference book really costs, for professional assistance. I don't know how another* publishing professional could POSSIBLY THINK that laying out a reference book (about publishing, mind you!!!) in WORD is the right thing to do, nor how she never bothered, in DECADES, to learn how to use the damn software properly. Not even STYLES??? REALLY?? I. Do. Not. Get. How. This. Happens. I really, REALLY don't. Hitch