[Hitch]

Originally Posted by gmw

It's interesting to read your reactions to Scrivener, Hitch.

I was thoroughly impressed with the product, especially their interactive tutorial so you can really try it out properly and see how it's supposed to work. It's all so impressive that I'd really like to use it ... but I don't. I've tried a few times, but somehow I seem to spend more time mucking around, trying to get the tags and stuff all set up as I think I'll want, that I never actually get any writing done. I also think it's editor lets it down, RTF is not a good fit, they need something properly styles based. I haven't given up on the Scrivener yet, but so far it just hasn't worked for me.

I don't do detail outlines, so I come closer to the "pantser" side of the fence than you do. But OCD isn't biased, it manages to hit you whatever your style. (I have come to the conclusion that an obsessive nature is probably a prerequisite for writing). I make copious notes as I go: timeline details; setting and general background; great screeds of character history, from general details to scenes and dialogue. And because all this is developed and maintained as I write the main text, trying to make sure it all remains consistent is a lot of work. (I find having a separate place to get carried away writing background helps me to keep from trying to include it all in the main text - which saves me having to cut it all out again later.)

I did try yWriter a long while ago, but I found it sort of cramped and distracting for the actual writing part. Maybe I just needed to give it longer.

As a software developer I've had dreams of putting together my own solution, but I have enough trouble finding time to write as it is.


Dr Drib. Thanks for the links, even more things to spend time looking over ... just what I needed.

Y'know, when it comes to Scrivener, as an outlining tool, I think it's fine. As I said, I like being able to use the multi-level outline, and use the cards. Honestly, it isn't anything I couldn't have done in Word, far more easily, TBH. I think if a writer/author doesn't know Word very well, what Scrivener does must seem like MAGIC. I've read lots of glowing reports about it, with most folks going ON AND ON AND ON about how you can drag-drop scenes/chapters, etc., around, which of course, they lifted right from Word's outline feature. I mean, they are literally identical.

The rest, pretty much--it's using a directory structure for folks whom, I guess, can't navigate their way around a filedir. I mean, really, you can't set up a folder/dir with a sub-folder that says "character sketches?" {shrug}. To me, it's mostly something like Word, matched with something a bit like OneNote/Evernote. What I DO like about it, however, is the ability to see the notes I make, for a given bit (the index card feature). For me, that's really important. It's pretty much the only reason I'm not using Word for this outlining--because I can make notes about each scene/segment/goal, and see them in the corkboard in Scrivener. The rest? To me, foofy s**t.

@DrDrib wrote:

Mobileread member Robert Sawyer uses Writer's Blocks, and he even has an endorsement for that program on their website.

Perhaps he'll post in this thread about his further interaction with it, as well as offer some details on how he uses it to outline his novels.

I wish it wasn't so expensive.

You know, when I looked at it, it didn't blow my skirt up. There's something about it I just didn't like. But I do plan to try it, if they offer a demo.

I was really offput by WriteItNow; not sure why. Maybe because it looks like it was written in 1997 and never updated, although I try really hard not to be influenced by foofy-stuff. (I mean, I'm a pretty diehard YW5 user, so...). I did download it, and it has a pretty old downloader that couldn't install where I wanted it to, which is weird.

And the Doc also said:

I then installed yWriter on my Mac. ---- I still can't seem to wrap my head around the software. For me, it seems so 'busy'. I do like the way one can add so many details to what one is working on, but (again) it just seems repetitive in the menus and the 'hidden' menus/commands, etc, which seem more numerous than Tribbles!

You might be confusing (no offense) the main menu items with the (repetitively-named) per-chapter/scene menu items. For example, the main menu has "Characters," by which you can create new; view existing; edit existing; show scenes per character; show word count per character (!), and generate reports (Print Character List, Print Scenes per character, print characters per Tag). In the actual chapters, there's another "Characters" menu item--which solely displays the characters IN THAT SCENE. Right above it is yet another characters menu item--but this is for all the characters in the chapter in which that scene takes place. You can, with a click, see how many POV scenes are in that chapter, and for which characters.

As I mentioned previously, YW5 is definitely for those of us who are goal-oriented and OCD about things like hitting certain beats or structure elements (like getting to X in Act II). What it does for me, particularly with the Scene details, is force me to decide "Yes, this is an action scene, and this is what happens," and not dither around with writing 2,000 words of "Amy did this and that and then thought about her navel-lint" kind of crap. I force myself to rate the scene (relevance, tension, humor, quality), so that I don't fool myself about what I'm doing. I love the time-lining. I have a WIP with two timelines (actually 3, but...) one "now," one 3 mos. ahead, and something that happened in the past. Trying to keep all that straight in something like Scrivener would be bloody hopeless.

I don't think that there's one "right tool." I think that everybody is different, and writes differently, and that's the way it works. For me, right now, I'm stuck on Snowflake Pro (really--it's awesome for character development, as dopey as it sounds), Scrivener for the main outline, and then when I have the final story structure (as "final" as it will get, before I really get writing) in place, I'll move it all over, lock, stock and barrel, to YW5. There really is only one thing (two) in YW5 that I wish I had, that it doesn't; the old-school outlining method, using indentation for visual cues, and an ability to use a few more levels, so that I can stick my own signposts in there. So that I could put a "level" beneath the Act, but above chapters, and still have chapters and scenes. To me, that would pretty much make YW5 perfect. Even then, if I were willing to work a bit harder, I could put them in there with appropriate names, and use the Scene List functionality--and see everything I need.

So...yes, like all of us, I'll keep looking, but so far, I'm not seeing ONE Ring to Rule them All. :-)

Hitch