[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Julanna

Hitch, you sound so worked up! I suspect this issue isn't worth that much angst.

Well, several thousand books into my ebook-making career, it might be that I've answered this question, about indices, a few times, and had to think about and deal with it, more than once.

I already know how an index will work in paper and the differences with ebooks. I also know how html works.

Your reply is actually full of good information that will come in handy for newbies who don't understand the mechanics of it. Should have been written up with a more helpful tone.

Excuse me? You're annoyed because my TONE wasn't what you wanted? I wasn't telling you how an index works in paper; I was explaining the mechanics of using the existing coding to make indices.

Making the target itself a blue underlinded piece of text is not appropriate, of course publishers are not enamored of it. Doing that only makes the target look like a link because that's what everyone is use to seeing after using the net ever since forever. And if it's only a target (and not a link back to the index) it's only blue underlined pieces of text. You'd have to put in a separate link back to the index. Possible, at this stage I haven't done that.

Yes.That's exactly what you do: make a link BACK to the Index item. Stay tuned...

On some browsers using the back button will take you back to the index, but not on all browsers. It's easy to make the target invisible by using different coding (thank you helpful mobileread people on a different thread).

On a browser? eBooks and browsers aren't the same thing. They're not even close. Half the readers out there don't have "back" buttons. Half the damn Kindles out there don't have them.

Just to clarify, I'm only looking at a simply name index, but I suspect if my problems were solved it could be upscaled for large books with a complex index as well.

And when I say it's an overlooked opportunity I'm talking about the programmers who haven't yet worked out a solution. This isn't my area, I actually don't know how much work would be involved, but I suspect it hasn't been done because of the idea that search is enough rather that it not being possible.

No. You misunderstand entirely. The aspect of indices has been worked on for years. It's not ignored because "search si good enough." The problems--which I don't believe you understand, at all--with multiple "back" jumps, have created the 'search is quite good' response.

The target text does not land at the top of the page in an ebook in any reader or software reader I've tested on, only on a html page.

You're right. It only highlights it. Boy, that would be HORRIBLE.

The problem with the target not being blue underlined is that then the target can't be seen easily when the link is activated. It's somewhere on the page. (Which is how a paper index displays).

A solution to that could have been to have a temporary highlight on the target in an ebook when the link it activated, and that's what I've realised, on this thread, isn't possible with current html/css and ebook conversions.

That's right. it cannot be done with current HTML/CSS and ebook conversions. Period. It requires something like javascript. Which only iBooks has, which is a tiny fraction of devices.

And, actually, having multiple targets is easily displayed in the index using a, b, c etc. Looks good that way. The code part of the targets in mine also have letters that match. I use find so I don't miss an instance of a name and paste code down the page, just changing the letter difference as I go. I don't have trouble knowing where I'm up to and then I can create the correct number of links in the index just changing the letter on each.

As I endeavored to explain, having "a, b, c" in the INDEX, isn't the problem. It's the other way around. Are you going to put this: (Text borrowed from wikipedia, hope nobody gets their panties in a twist about this):

The coat is moderately long, silky, and of a red or chestnut color. It requires frequent brushing to maintain its condition and keep it mat-free. The undercoat is abundant in winter weather, and the top coat is fine. Their coats should also feather in places such as the tail, ears, chest, legs, and body. [Jump back to Index Setters, Irish] [Jump back to Index Setters] [Jump back to Index Hunting Dogs] Irish Setters range in height from 25 to 27 inches (64 to 69 cm), males weigh 60 to 70 lb (27 to 32 kg) and females 53 to 64 lb (24 to 29 kg). The FCI Breed Standard for the Irish Setter stipulates males: 23 to 26.5 inches (58 to 67 cm), females: 21.5 to 24.5 inches (55 to 62 cm). Irish Setters are deep chested dogs with small waists. Irish Setters life expectancy tends to be around 11 to 12 years.

...for all the entries that have multiple Indices linking TO THEM? This is the part I endeavored to explain. it's not that the INDEX has multiple pages for an ENTRY, it's that the ENTRY has multiple links TO IT. Now, in your case, with "last names" or whatever it is you're doing, maybe that won't happen, in which case, you'll just NOT do the blue links, and your users will have to search the next page, or 4, to find the entry. But the point I tried to make was, when you have multiple links BACK, you can't put something like this:

Irish Setters get along well with children, other dogs, and any household pets, and will enthusiastically greet visitors. Even though they do well with household pets, small animals may pose a problem for this breed, as they are a hunting breed. Some Irish setters may have problems with cats in the house, and may be too rambunctious with small children. As the FCI, ANKC and UK Standards state, the breed should be "Demonstrably affectionate." As a result, Irish Setters make excellent companion animals and family pets.

...in which, 3 or 4 different INDEX items are all "jumped back to," obviously, from the ONE link (the underlined text is representing a single target.)

There's no reasonable way, to get the multiple index links TO, to work, with ONE target. I mean, sure, you can have them all jump there--but you can't get them BACK. So, if Jane is looking up, in Hunting Dogs, 24 different breeds, and, god forbid, she wants to go back to "Hunting Dogs," in the spot in the list she'd gotten to..how does she do that, if "Irish Setter" is linked to from 3 or 5 or 10 other places?

And yes it is semi-painstaking. I've only done a small family history book. Working out a system helps (shrugs).

We could number paragraphs, and I've seen small ebooks that do that, but it is so clunky, especially so in a larger book, even if you use chapter no. and paragraph number. Clunky. And I don't like seeing chapter numbers in the text so they'd have to be invisible to satisfy me too. I may try this sometime.

As I said further up the target will not be on the top of the screen on an ebook reader or software (except by coincidence). This could be different in a .mobi or whatever ibooks use. I haven't tested those formats. It *will not* in an epub.

Ok, and saying again, I know it's the creation process. The creation process is what needs to change.

At this stage I don't care what publishers will pay for. Search is not as good as an index, an index is a structured finding tool that facilitates learning. Of course publishers are going to not pay for it unless they find dollar motivation. Publishers motivations have always involved money. On the other hand if some use proper indexes, others will be pressurred into using them.

Just because it's currently difficult doesn't mean it isn't a problem that shouldn't be solved. Talking about it will help push in that direction. Sitting back and ignoring it, or accepting half assed work arounds will only mean it's never solved.

If you think that paragraph numbering is clunky, wait until you try to create multiple back-jumps to an index, or a concordance, from within a single target. As my "tone" isn't helpful, and, hey--what would I know about it, anyway--I'll withdraw. Good luck.

Oh, BTW: Sigil has an index creation aspect, yes; but he indices work as LINKS.

Hitch