[Manabi]

Originally Posted by Dopedangel

Both companies are fighting for themselves we are just observers. The more interesting thing for me is how far Amazon is willing to hurt its customers and its customer service in getting its way.

The thing is, what Amazon has done so far can be explained one of two ways:

1. Strong-armed negotiating tactics
2. Unwillingness to keep pricing/availability the same until the new deal is done.

Things like the long-shipping delays: we only have Hachette's word that they're still shipping stuff as quickly, and someone earlier in this thread noted that Hachette's idea of "quickly" may not be what you and I think it is. The killing off of pre-orders may simply be Amazon doesn't know if they'll still have rights then because the contract expires before the book's release date.

So which is it? From the outside we simply don't know for sure. All the sources have a hat in the ring and a spin to push. I'm unwilling to take Hachette (or their authors, who may be getting much of their information from Hachette) at face value. I'm also unwilling to take Amazon's claims at face value, although they're mostly remaining silent.

Subtract all the biased claims and you get this: Hachette and Amazon are renegotiating a contract and it's contentious, as such matters tend to be. That's all we actually know for certain.

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

But since Hachette mostly pays author advances, and Amazon, as a publisher, mostly doesn't, I still, as a mild fan of literature, root for Hachette. I'm sure that going indie benefits some authors (while hurting others). But what I see as a reader is that, as a publisher, Amazon favors quantity over quality. Maybe Hachette does as well, but not to that extent.

It may be considered "Indie", but Amazon pays larger percentages of e-book sales than the BPHs to authors that go direct. So I'm not sure you can say definitely that they benefit from sticking with Hachette. It could go either way depending on the author and their situation. Also: quantity vs. quality does not have an absolute winner in the market. There are pros and cons to both.

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Do you have any polling information on this? I just tried to find it, and cannot.

I just have history on my side, but what does that count for? Look at the digital music market, people most definitely did hate DRM, and it was hurting the music business far more than it was helping them. It ultimately died off, and the music business as a whole is doing fine. Why did they hate it? Interoperability problems with players. DRM'd music was mostly only playable from the store that was tied to your device (iPods and iTunes for example). People still hate it with videos too. You see so, so many complaints about not being able to play a video on certain devices because of it.

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Just guessing, I would think the opposite. Library borrowers don't like that the book disappears when the due date is reached.

Err, they got a set check-out period for the e-book and they'd be surprised it goes away when that period is over? Do you seriously think library users are that stupid? By the same argument you could say people hate libraries because they have due dates and have to return the books. Does that make any sense to you?

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

My biggest objection to the Overdrive/3M/Axis360 systems is that you can't pay a small fine to go a few days overdue, as with paper books. So while I don't hate the DRM on library books, I dislike it.

Well, my state's e-book library will let you renew as long as there's not a hold on all available copies. But that's not unusual, my physical library is the same. You can even renew by phone, but if someone's got a hold on it, you can't and have to return it. That's not entirely a DRM issue, that's just how libraries work. Fines are intended as punishment for not following the rules, not a feature.

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

In contrast, as someone who only owns one device, and deletes a book after reading (and other family members here are the same way), how would I even know there is such a thing as DRM, if I wasn't following this board?

Depends on who you buy from. If you bought your e-books from Apple's store, then decide to get an Android tablet, you're going to be out of luck and DRM will ruin your day (and personal library). This goes back to my point about music and DRM. The same problem occurred but was more widespread because the dominant market player (Apple) wouldn't license their Fairplay DRM so other players couldn't play DRM'd iTunes music. (It also still happens with iTunes videos on any mobile platform besides Apple's own products.)

Amazon has actually done a great job there by making the Kindle app available for pretty much every device on the planet. So the DRM doesn't interfere. But it's not always that way. (Case in point: I can't stream my Amazon videos on my Android tablets other than my Kindle Fire. It's very annoying.)

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

To my Dad, if you buy it from Amazon, there is nothing on the book to worry about. That's why he will sometimes pay 99 cents for an Agatha Christie eBook that he can almost as easily get from the public library. I think you underestimate how common is his perception.

That's not really DRM either. That's just convenience. Getting it from Amazon is easier for him than going to the library, so he spends the cash. He'd do the same even if the book didn't have DRM. (And very possibly already has.)

What you're trying to say is that since many people don't notice DRM is there, they don't mind it. And that's true, as long as that assumption holds true. But try telling your dad he doesn't own those e-books and that Amazon can (contractually!) take them away from him at any time, even while he's in the middle of reading them, and see what he thinks about THAT.

If he's fine and dandy with that, then yeah, he likes DRM. I'm going to bet he won't like that idea though, I've yet to encounter anyone who does.

As for your little remark about "some of the anti-DRM posters". I would say to you: read the first part of my reply about what we truly know about the Hachette vs. Amazon situation and tell me how you're claiming everything Hachette has claimed is true without any way of proving it. I think the group you disparaged is doing a better job of pointing out real evidence (and lack thereof). We're withholding judgement till we actually have some unbiased facts to judge by. Either party (or even both, which is most likely) could be to blame.