[Hitch]

Originally Posted by gmw

I definitely sympathise with the confusion, but it seems to be the case. It's not helped by MS doing weird and wonderful tricks with Windows Explorer so that folders of files don't look like folders of files anymore - unless you spend lots of time in the background reclaiming control of your system, or using software that lets you see what's actually there ... you know, like Explorer used to.

But the fact is that enormous effort has been taken to try an hide the file system from the user - with varying levels success. Sending your average user to live there (while they create their story structure) might be a step in the wrong direction.

I just spent 36 minutes and 9 seconds--in case anyone here thinks I'm just making this crap up--with a client, who could not figure out a) how to download ADE (the UPDATE, not even the first time he's done this); b) how to download the ePUB file that we post on our Production website (run via TeamworksPM--dead simple, mind you, and it's the second book we've done for him); c) and how to download the WORD FILE Proof form, open it, type in it, and save it. Oh, and yeah: couldn't figure out how to nagivate to the folder for "downloads."

Last Thursday, I showed a client, for the first, time, ever, how to have two things open on her desktop at once. A browser window, and a Word file. Or her email program and Firefox. She was positively gobsmacked. Didn't know how to put a program "down" and not "away."

As far as Windows hiding the actual location of folders from their users, of course they do that. We've all seen it, and we've all run into it with various and sundry command-line things we've endeavored to do. I mean, "Documents-->My Documents" most certainly isn't where that folder "really" is, and we--the type of geeksters that hang out here on MR--all know that. You think that the general public knows that? Hell, no, they don't. And if somebody else set up their computer for them? (Yes--shocking. But I have clients who cannot download programs, because they don't have admin privileges. They can't SEE their actual directories.)

I'm just sayin': unless you deal with the regular, not-geeky, public all day, telling them how to do stuff, you have NO idea what I'm talking about. That doesn't mean you're stupid, or your idea is bad, or anything like that; it just means...you are assuming that everyone can do "the simple stuff," and I'm here to tell you: no. They can't. Most of them find what we think to be normal, everyday computer usage challenging. I will tell you right now that more than 60% of my clients don't know what browser they use--when I ask, they say "Yahoo" or "Google" or whatever. Most of my clients don't know how to type in the URL bar--they can only search for things.

So: you can rock on as you see fit, but if you haven't spent any time in a CSR center providing tech assistance to the general public, I think you're in for a shock. I know that I've certainly been pretty shocked for the last five years, and I'm still shocked occasionally, which I thought was impossible.

It seems not possible to be so ignorant about computers that you DON'T know about how to create a folder, don't know how to create and write some stuff into a text file, while you ARE able to use Word and all of its capabilities effectively. It just doesn't seem possible. If someone can open and save a file in Word (or even Notepad), then they already know enough to use the above system.

You didn't read what I wrote. I expressly told you that most people don't use Styles, but that they do use italics, bold, and underscores, AND FONTS, extensively.

In my view, that does not compute. It seems not possible to be so ignorant about computers that you DON'T know about how to create a folder, don't know how to create and write some stuff into a text file, while you ARE able to use Word and all of its capabilities effectively. It just doesn't seem possible.

Seriously? I have news for you. Most of my users are not comfortable using folders. And they certainly wouldn't use a text file, for the reasons I outlined in my previous paragraph.

I am obviously not in a position to speak for "everyone." I can only speak for the 2K or so people who've passed through here. By definition, many are not tecchie; if they were, they'd make their own books. But if you're aiming a program deliberately at a "non-tecchie" crowd, you need to know what the realities are, and, I'll say it again: I think you'll be shocked. Maybe about the 30th time you try to explain to some person that words have to wrap in an ebook, you'll start to get the feel for it. Or the 50th time you've had to tell someone that they didn't actually attach their (Word) Proof form to their email. OR the 100th phone call where someone can't figure out how to download a file attachment in Yahoomail or AOL. What we consider "everyday," like making folders, copying files (yes: that's an unusual event for many of my clients), moving files, drag and drop--all of this is alien territory to a surprising number of people.

{shrug}. FWIW. As I said--rock on. Best of luck with your program, I mean it, I do. I just think that most people at that level of wanting "barebones" could very easily just use Ywriter for it, which acts pretty much like you're describing and outputs fairly clean RTF, which, Vydor says, can be made into a barebones ePUB. But hell, don't let me stop ya.