View Single Post
Old 10-09-2013, 09:52 PM   #57
Andrew H.
Grand Master of Flowers
Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,201
Karma: 8389072
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Naptown
Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)
Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin-c View Post
Since the terms are from a time before either grammar or spelling was standardized I don't think there's any 'correct' version. If it gets the meaning across then I think they accepted is as good. Today's professors might disagree but I don't think the original writers would.
No...!
All languages have grammar, even if they don't have spelling, and all grammars follow rules. -st is the standard early modern English second person indicative ending: thou liest, thou goest, thou eatest, etc. (There are irregular forms; thou art, thou shalt, but they are limited to the irregular verbs. Thou *shalst is ungrammatical, as is thou *goet.)

However, "thou wert" is not necessarily incorrect; it is just the subjunctive form.

In modern English, we do still sometimes distinguish between indicative and subjunctive: "I was at the store yesterday" is a statement of fact; "was" is the correct standard form for these kind of statements (i.e., indicative statements). "I were at the store yesterday" is ungrammatical in standard english as a statement of fact, but it's proper in contrary-to-fact subjunctive statements ("If I were at the store yesterday, I would have told you." (but I wasn't at the store). It doesn't have to be in the past: "If I were you" is a contrary to fact statement about the present.

Of course a lot of people don't use subjunctive anymore, so you do hear "If I was at the store yesterday" or "If I was you...".

However, earlier forms of the subjunctive were used in far more situations than they are now, including in statements showing hope (i.e., the optative mood) or doubt or even a statement of belief that a person does not know is true, but believes to be true (or sometimes hopes to be true; see optative).

But "wast" is *probably* better, since it doesn't seem like a form of the subjunctive would apply.

Note that "thou wert" is all over the King James bible ("If thou were pure and upright...").

Anyway, the second line doesn't scan well. Maybe "Arise, thread, long since dead/ Fill thy forum with fear and dread!"
Andrew H. is offline   Reply With Quote