[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The Star Trek and Dr Who stories I read are pretty well devoid of Christian themes, unless "orgies in the holodeck" has become a sacrament for some denominations.

What you don't think Spock dying for the crew of the Enterprise and returning to life is not a Christian theme?

And how about how as each Doctor dies he is reborn in a new body but is essentially the same?

Note, I didn't say Christian preaching, I said Christian themes. That is why I asked about about the genre, which does seem to be often about preaching, versus the themes, which frankly pepper much of Western Fiction, even if the author intends to or not.

The overwhelming prevalence of Christian themes in Western literature is a big part of why I read a lot of fanfic and look for books that have sources outside of Western Culture.

Never bothered with fanfic... but I bet there are more themes there as well, particularly if it is based on a work that has Christian themes in it.

Challenging assumptions is fine. I enjoy religious debate. But the books with those themes don't challenge anything; they say "this is how the world works;" there is no discussion of the source of their premises, and no consideration of how someone who doesn't share them could make sense of the book.

I think you are confusing preaching from themes. To go to the Lord of the Rings as an example. There are plenty of Christian themes peppered in the book, but little overt preaching.

As for underlying assumptions or premises, this seems to be a rather peculiar position to take. I have read and enjoyed books that were blatantly secular humanist in their outlook even though I don't accept that world view and even though there is no underlying discussion of those assumptions. Why? Because like Christianity, it is a major school of thought in Western civilization and being a member of that civilization, I am at least familiar with its particular outlook.

"Christian fiction" doesn't challenge the assumptions of non-Christians. It just leaves them cold--without sharing the premises the author is using as a foundation, they've got no way to understand how the characters react to plot events, and why the plot unfolds as it does. The characters come across as forced and wooden and the plots tend to be predictable and lacking in meaningful impact.

Again, I think that depends on what one defines as Christian Fiction. If it is the stuff that is found on the Christian Book shelf of the book store, I think it has less to do with a poor foundation and more to do with just plain poor writing.

If on the other hand, you are making this claim about works by some of the greatest writers of the last couple of centuries... then it just strikes me as being sad.

Much like if someone doesn't like romance novels and tries to read one--the plot is likely to seem inane ("why do I care why this woman needs a handyman for her house? Who cares if he was her brother's tormentor in high school? If they hate each other so much, why would they ever agree to go to a dance together?"), the characters are likely to seem insipid ("doesn't she ever think about anything other than getting a husband? If he's always liked the color of her hair, why doesn't he just tell her instead of moping about it?"), and the conclusion is likely to seem pointless ("so, they've slept together and they're gonna get married... good for them? Why did I need to spend three hours reading time to find this out?").

Whatever message or meaning is in the story is lost on someone who doesn't care about the tropes and themes of the genre. For a romance reader, the value of *that* (entirely hypothetical) book, rather than countless others in the genre, might be that she has strong family relationships (rare but not unknown), that he his her employee instead of the other way around (ditto), that he's not wealthy, military, or an artist (also fairly rare).

The concepts that "animosity hides a spark of interest that could lead to love" and "working relationships can turn romantic without messing up both people's lives" are taken as given. Those are built into the genre; no justification for them is offered. If you don't agree, or can't set aside disagreement for the length of a book, don't read most romance books; you won't like them.

The basic tropes and concepts of "Christian fiction" are ones I don't agre with. I can sometimes identify their value as literary conventions; I'm willing to be persuaded that they're more than that (not likely, but it could happen)--but the fiction isn't going to go there. Romance novels don't justify the concepts of true-love-happily-ever-after; Christian fiction doesn't justify the concept of a benevolent omniscient deity who guides and shapes people's lives.

I love stories that challenge my preconceptions. They have to start from the notion that readers will need more than "if you believed this, you'd love this story."

I am still not sure what you mean when you say Christian Fiction. Are we talking the genre or simply work with Christian themes. Because frankly using the definition you just gave of Christian Fiction, it is totally missing the whole Christianity thing. Good fiction will often have Christian themes in it (intentionally or not) because Christianity has shaped the way Western culture views the world. Concepts such as good or evil, flawed characters attempting to overcome their flaws, the problem of evil are all ones that are deeply Christian and yet hard to tell a good story without (well without some of them anyway).

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Bill