[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

What I found surprising, given that I had never read the Iliad before, was where in the timeline of the Trojan war the Iliad begins. The story of the seduction (or kidnapping) of Helen, "The face that launched a thousand ships," is years in the past at Book 1.

Speaking of Book 1 it was sure tough on women back then. When you really look at what was being talked about for the situation of Chryseis and Briseis is both are just spoils of war, goods to be done as pleased with, including raped.

I also found the timeline surprising. It took me awhile to realise they had been in this war nine years. I got to the one point where it mentions nine years and I was like, wait, what, did they just skip nine years into the future?

Yes, it was tough on women back then, but really, it's always been tough on women, even today. Look at how repressive some countries here in 2012 are towards women. While on the other end of the spectrum, the Iliad speaks of the Amazons (wasn't expecting that!) who were fierce independent women warriors even way back in the BCE.

Also, I think that it's arguable whether being a spoil of war (the defeated or captured women) is better or worse than being killed outright (the defeated or captured men). It's not like the defeated women were the only ones who had it bad.

And also, I think their religion was much more pro-woman than the history of most major religions today. Most religions are male-dominated, and while the head honcho was a male named Zeus, there were plenty of women gods in Greek mythology, including as we see in the Iliad ones willing to put on armour and go out and fight in battle. And women could be priestesses and such.

Honestly, I think women had it better in ancient Greece than in many other cultures hundreds or even thousands of years later.

Originally Posted by issybird

...I was bemused by the title, The Rage of Achilles in my edition; I have also seen it rendered as The Wrath of Achilles. "Hissy-fit" would seem more accurate to me. Achilles even goes crying to mom because the bigger boy took his toy away.

Well, yes, but he wasn't the only one throwing a hissy fit. I think it's fair to say that judging by the Iliad it seemed normal going for all kinds of people to throw hissy fits. Agamemnon threw a hissy fit too, whining that it wasn't fair that he had to let his toy go, so he had to take someone else's.

Originally Posted by BenG

One thing that strikes me about The Iliad is that even though it's a Greek epic, the Trojans seem much more likeable than the Greeks.

I would agree and wonder if Homer meant it that way, or if that is a result of our cultural interpretation of it.

It seems to me that really when one thinks about it, they seem about the same in likability, but in the Trojans we're seeing a people making a last stand about to be defeated, and we feel for them.

Originally Posted by 6charlong

Also, people are always taking hold of someone's knees when they want something. What's with that anyway? For example at line 500 Homer has Thetis hitting Zeus up to whack the Greeks for the way they dissed her boy Achilleus:

"She came and sat beside him with her left hand embracing
his knees, but took him underneath the chin with her right hand
and spoke in supplication to lord Zeus son of Kronos..."

Now if Zeus is the Big Kahuna how is it Thetis gets away with that? We don't know much about monarchs in America but I can't imagine someone going up to Queen Elizabeth and grabbing hold of her like that to ask for something.

Well, Thetis was also an immortal though. It wasn't like she was any old human trying to hold Zeus' knees. And the immortals all give off the air of one big dysfunctional family.

Originally Posted by Carmelreader

I can't believe how interesting book 1 is. I have wanted to read this, but I didn't expect to get hooked like I have.

Yep, Book 1 was my favourite so far too. I was actually a bit disappointed once the battle started. First that long list of names that reminded me of the Bible. Then they go into battle and it just sort of often flits from random person to random person telling us who won or lost some random little fight. Some I find interesting, then others tedious. But then it gets back to the story parts with the gods or Paris and Helen and such and it gets better again.

Like, I sort of felt like in Book 1 there was this great moving story, then in Book 2 it just comes to a screeching halt for a while, then when it starts back up it's only inching along, often stuck in the mire of a slow-moving battle. But I feel that as the books pass, it slowly picks up more and more steam so that I felt that by Book 6 (where I am so far) it's gotten pretty good again.

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

As an observation on the comment by 6charlong about repeated use of certain phrases it also seems to depend on the translation one has in hand. In the Lattimore translation that I finally settled on goddesses, or at least noble women, are regularly referred to as “of the white arms.” Juno is often described in this way as is Aphrodite and Hektor's wife. Yet when I searched for the phrase “white arms” in the ebook version of the Butler translation it was not to be found.

OK, I'm reading the same translation as you, but I took white arms to mean something very different. I was thinking of the phrase where white arms means "non-firearm weapons" and since it's used to describe I think Hera and Athene I was taking it to mean they were some battle-ready women!

It would be pretty funny to me after thinking of it that way for six books if he'd just meant they had fair skin on their arms.

I have been struck by how often events are influenced by the immortal gods, whether just providing advice or inspiration to fight. Or even an active role in battle such as preventing harm to those they wish to protect or aiding in injuring or killing the enemy. Yet the behavior and motivation of these gods is often capricious and even child like. When Ares is injured in battle at the end of Book 5 (by Athena) he goes running back to Jove and says:

Very much like on child running to complain to a parent about a sister who is being unfair in games they are playing together.

I do love this about Greek gods (and Hindu gods). I love how human they are. They're not some perfect ideal, they're very flawed.

What I found especially funny about Ares running back to Zeus was that he had already agreed with Athene to not fight in or influence the battle anymore earlier on, yet then he breaks his word, shows up to battle again, and gets mad when Athene helps a human hurt him. These gods really are a riot!

ETA - I do want to say one more thing though about the Ares thing in particular. I think he was also trying to stir up Zeus because Zeus was supposed to be on the Trojans side. From what I got, Athene and Hera were mostly pro-Achaian while Zeus, Ares and Apollo were pro-Troy. But since Zeus wasn't doing anything since he'd given into Hera, I took that particular part as Ares trying to rile him up to help their "side".