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Old 01-04-2011, 02:26 PM   #369
eppythacher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Yuga View Post
Incorrect.

You are making an explicit statement that certain historical trends and revisions of ethical systems are essentially inevitable. I am not twisting your positions into ones you don't hold and ascribing them to you, which is how the "straw man" fallacy functions.

Nor am I saying that "all predictions are impossible," rather that it is obvious that extenuating circumstances routinely disrupt what seems to be a "historic inevitability." Who predicted the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, and the world war that resulted? Who predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall? The rise of China as a quasi-capitalist powerhouse? The appearance of Al-Qaeda and international Islamist terrorism? The fall of Rome, the rise of Christianity, the appearance and spread of Islam?

On the flip side: In the 70s, Japan was regarded as a mortal threat to American industrial pre-eminence. The US economy subsequently boomed while Japan suffered from an extended deflationary cycle that still afflicts their economy. Or in ancient times, the divided Greek city-states seemed doomed in the face of Darius' overwhelming military might, yet the Persians were driven out of Greece in the end. And surely, many empires presumed they would "inevitably" persist far longer than they actually did.

Trust me, we could sit here all day and rattle off failed predictions and massive surprises throughout recorded history.

History is usually only "predictable" in hindsight.



True. However, my examples are nowhere near as extreme or outlandish, and numerous examples are drawn from history.



See, that is a straw man argument.

I am not stating that the US is going to turn into a totalitarian state. My point is that because you cannot predict the future, it is impossible to establish ethical guidelines based upon presumptions about the moral guidelines that will be established by a future society.

The evidence is abundant that history is not predictable, nor are social attitudes.

More importantly, if you index your ethical premises to an unknown future date, what are the ethical premises that the Future People will bring to bear? Won't they in turn be obligated to guess what morals the Future Future People will hold? How long in the future should we look -- 50 years, 100 years, 200 years? The very idea either turns into an infinite regress or a series of moving targets, each less predictable than the last.

Last but not least, why should I care about a future judgment? I'll be dead and buried by the time such an era rolls around. Do I really need to concern myself with being judged by people who don't yet exist, and whose moral principles are a huge question mark?

I recommend you stick with contemporary ethical principles, rather than grasp at an illusory future.
All very good arguments. I will concede that future morals, in democracies, in 100 years will be hard to predict. However, what about the morals of banning books in the last 3000 years by governments or companies? I believe no one on this board cares about what fascists states thinks about banning books. My point being that no government democracy in human history thinks banning books is a good idea. I guess it would be easy to prove me wrong, since I don't know history very well. I could be wrong, but in regards to the history of morals of book banning in democracies, IF it's true that no democracy in the last 3000 years thought it was a good idea then in the next 100 years you might be able to predict a continuing moral trend.
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