Discussion: The Machine Stops by E. M. Forster (spoilers)
 

Let's get this party started. I haven't read it yet... but I know it was a short read and many have. I thought it would be good to start this a bit early so people could post their thoughts and start the discussion before they forgot what they wanted to say.

BOb

For those who wish to discuss this story, please see this website for possible ideas for developmental discussion (although this site really doesn't cover specifically the work under discussion, but rather other aspects of Forster's writings).

http://www.literaryhistory.com/20thC/Forster.htm

Forster studies concentrates on such aspects as emperialism and colonialism; historigraphy; polyphonic aspects of storytelling, in addition to gender issues, to name only a few. (I'm particularly fascinated by rhetor Kenneth Burke's dramatistic pentad for excavating motive through action and discourse.)

Additionally, there was a TV adaptation of this novelette [it is not a short story] here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060643/

which may be available for purchase somewhere in your area.

Further discussion can be gleaned from here

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2008...pixars-wall-e/

wherein the author attempts a comparison/contrast on the Pixar film WALL-E.

And finally, a FREE AUDIO BOOK is available from

http://librivox.org/the-machine-stops-by-e-m-forster/

I have not listened to this and can offer no comments as to the audio quality of the production or to the interpretive stanch of the narrator(s).

Hopefully, this information will help jump-start meaningful discussion, to include (as merely one example) a study of Forster's homosexuality and how he might view the technology and ethos of the future.

Happy reading, y'all ! I'll join everyone when we start discussion on Stephen King's "Under the Dome."

(Me - I'm back to whipping Zombies and torturing dead cats - and I certainly have my work cut out for me! ACKKKK!!!! )




Don

That show can be view free in it's 50 minute 37 second entirety here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ient=firefox-a

It is an excellent and very literal adaptation of the novelette. There are some minor changes to allow for story-telling in a TV medium, but the dialogue is practically word-for-word.

There is another adaptation of The Machine Stops here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRIlegVJIoQ

Don't confuse this one with the excellent Out of the Unknown production. This one is stylish and beautiful to look at, but the story cannot be properly told in 9 minutes and 34 seconds, and the result is that much of the story is sacrificed for style. A prison is introduced, as well as some dialogue about the Machine crying. Neither of those elements were in the novelette.

Okay, so I guess I was not totally impressed by the story, but I think that is because I've read so many like this, but, but, but, when I consider the date it was written and find that it still holds up pretty well I'm very impressed.

I guess it's the typical advance technology (for whatever reason) until you rely on it completely and then when it fails civilization is doomed -- a casualty of it's own progress.

Here are a couple discussion/analysis links I posted in the voting thread.



http://wiki.english.ucsb.edu/index.p...tions#See_Also
and
http://www.pkwy.k12.mo.us/west/teach...ng/machine.pdf

I thought parts of it were absolutely prophetic. He really nailed it when he spoke of how globalization has led to homogenization.

"Rapid intercourse, from which the previous civilization had hoped so much, had ended by defeating itself. What was the good of going to Peking when it was just like Shrewsbury? Why return to Shrewsbury when it would all be like Peking? Men seldom moved their bodies; all unrest was concentrated in the soul."

Remember; there were no McDonald's in 1909!

Wonderful find WT!! :thanks:

I agree that 'The Machine Stops' is extraordinarily prophetic. The impact of globalisation has already been mentioned; but also the aversion to risk taking - here in the UK reference is often made to our 'nanny state', and the burgeoning Health & Safety industry that some people see as being overly protective.

I was also struck how much closer we are to the world the story depicts in terms of global communications (e.g. MobileRead forums :) ); and the way we often choose vicarious over direct experiences.

In the voting thread, Ea mentioned that Forster said his story was a reaction to Wells' 'heavens' - it's interesting to note the way Forster's troglodytes and surface dwellers differ to those in Wells' 'The Time Machine'.

For such a short work, 'The Machine Stops' is stuffed with thought provoking concepts!

You're welcome, Sparrow, but I can't claim the credit. Another MobileRead member posted it in another forum first, and that's where I got it. ;)

Haven't yet made up my mind to form an opinion yet, except it was interesting to see a decription of the Internet. I last read this about 14-15 years ago, a few years before I properly started to use the Internet. It's interesting how much my perception of the story has because my environment has changed. And perhaps my English has gotten better in the mean time ;)

I have two questions:

- Why do you think the star constellation Kuno describes to to Vashti is that of Orion? (i.e. why this exact constellation?)

- Do you have any idea of the intention behind choosing the name 'Vashti' for the protagonist? If there is one - or Forster just wanted two names from different cultures.

I forgot... I loved the irony in the story. I think it's one of the things that keeps it sounding fresh even 100 years later.

Maybe making a connection between Orion the Hunter and Kuno's quest for knowledge.

Other constellations would have lacked symbolism, and most readers wouldn't have recognised them just from a description of the stars - Orion is the most widely known, and easily recognised constellation seen from Britain.

I found it a stretch to believe that Kuno would have so accurately duplicated the Greeks' representation of the stars as that of a man with a sword. I can't decide if Forster was hinting at some sort of race-memory, and that it was this that may have spurred Kuno into questioning the Machine in the first place.
Also it seems the constellations weren't unknown to the inhabitants of the Machine, when Kuno is on the surface he seems to have quite detailed astronomical knowledge:
"The sun grew very feeble, and I remembered that he was in Scorpio - I had been to a lecture on that too. If the sun is in Scorpio, and you are in Wessex, it means that you must be as quick as you can, or it will get too dark."
But maybe they just have a knowledge of the star patterns and not the mythological stories behind them. It's a puzzle. :chinscratch:

Sparrow, I don't think the situation is of "lost" knowledge, it is all there history wise, images of the surface, knowledge of what went before, but more a choice or willingness to "go along" with a virtual environment where all needs are met by the machine. A willingness to experience reality virtually and an aversion to actual direct experience.

The thing that intrigued me most (I think) about the story was the "search" for ideas on the part of Vashti and others including Kuno. I just re-read this section where he really sets up the tone and conflict that is behind the story (this just precedes the Orion description:

The air-ship barely takes two days to fly between me and you
I dislike air-ships.
Why?
I dislike seeing the horrible brown earth, and the sea, and the stars when it gets dark.
I get no ideas in an air-ship.
I do not get them anywhere else.
What kind of ideas can the air give you?
He paused for an instant. ...
(description of orion).

If you had to sum up the story in a few words or one sentence what would it be?

Does their society originate ideas; or are they just chewing the cud of ideas that have been handed down to them?
New ideas come from direct experiences, but they deliberately avoid them:
'Beware of first-hand ideas!' exclaimed one of the most advanced of them. 'First-hand ideas do not really exist. They are but the physical impressions produced by life and fear, and on this gross foundation who could erect a philosophy? Let your ideas be second-hand, and if possible tenth-hand, for then they will be far removed from that disturbing element - direct observation...

But, regarding Orion, I would have thought the representation of the stars as a hunter would have been known; so it puzzled me to read:
The three stars in the middle are like the belts that men wore once, and the three stars hanging are like a sword.'
'A sword?'
'Men carried swords about with them, to kill animals and other men.'
'It does not strike me as a very good idea, but it is certainly original...

It seemed to me that maybe knowledge was decaying; and parts of it had been lost entirely. (E.g. no-one had a full understanding of the Machine any more.)

Yes, you are right, the way it is described and presented that is exactly what is being conveyed by Forster I think! Great point.

Thanks, I didn't know that. In my country, the constellation known in English as 'the big dipper' or 'the plough' (part of ursa major, I think) is the most commonly known. Indeed my father told me it was the cart/wagon of the god Thor :)

Anyway, it's interesting to know Orion is best known in Britain, since Forster was English.

This search for ideas struck me, too. It seems that it's something everyone looks for, but according to Forster, they seem only truly to be found through direct, physical experience and people search ultimately in vain if they rely on input from the machine. Vashti urges her listeners of her lecture (a ten min. lecture! - short) to study early musicians for ideas - and right after the lecture she listens to a lecture on the sea - by somone who physically was there.

Vashti, in the book of Esther, got into trouble by refusing to display her beauty. Forster's Vashti is reclusive and avoids direct contact with other people, so there is a certain similarity.

I don't know what significance Kuno might have.

One thing that struck me is the prominence of “ideas.” It seems almost as if Forster is lampooning philosophical idealism. This seems odd as no one would blame people like Plato for the excesses of technology.

I think I may have an answer. I have been reading Simon Critchley’s Continental Philosophy in the OUP Very Short Introduction series. If I understand him correctly, he is saying something like the following:

Traditional European Christian culture, by valuing truth and rationality, subverted itself by encouraging the kind of philosophizing that, in the person of Kant, caused traditional beliefs to seem to be no longer viable. Much of post-Kantian Continental philosophy responds to this crisis.

Forster’s story may suggest a similar sort of self-subversion in secular scientific empiricist culture. Science produces technology upon which people become increasingly reliant, using it to mediate their interactions with others and with nature. They become more and more cut off from direct interactions with others and with nature and retreat into a sort of de facto idealism. People who think like Hume create technology which produces people who think like Plato.

I think there's a bit of an undercurrent, not quite overt of "worshiping the machine as God" and the danger therein.

Maybe that is my one-sentence description...

I think you have a good point here. It's been a very long time since I read anything of what you talk about, though, so bear with me. From what I remember from Forster's writing, is that he puts 'nature' very highly. He appears critical of 'culture' because it restricts nature in man - and I think in this context, technology is part of 'culture'. It cuts off man from experiencing life in full. 'Nature' meaning being direct, immediate, something that encorporate both body and mind.

Have you noticed that several times when the machine is mentioned in this way, there's some three-fold repeated sentence/words? For example. "... that the Machine may progress, that the Machine may progress, that the Machine may progress, eternally." There were at least two more instances, perhaps more.

Yes, that was what I could think of in relation to Vashti. I'm probably still just leaning towards what the names are simply supposed to be from two different cultures though they are mother and son, signifying that being a parent had much less meaning when the machine took over the work.

I think you both have made interesting observations. I also have no clue as to what the name Kuno might signify, but what Vector says here in relation to the Biblical character seems logical. As to the aspect of having names from two different cultures, that may be reflective of the disconnect between mother and son in a world where parenting is no longer the role of the biological parents.

I see other parallels to Plato, especially as regards how children are to be raised. It is interesting that the Machine's view of childcare by the state so closely resembles Plato's in The Republic.

Obviously with the reverence shown toward the words of the Machine contained the Book of the Machine, worship of the Machine and faith in its pronouncements has become the new religion; despite what Vashti says about having no religious beliefs.

In the dystopia Forster paints, people believe no better society is possible. They think the Machine state is perfect, no further improvement is conceivable, and any criticisms are met with accusations bordering upon treason. How different is that world from modern life in the United States. The folks in Forster's world falsely believe that they have the best of all possible worlds, while we in this country KNOW the USA never makes mistakes and is better than all other nations at everything it does.

Interesting. I suppose the members of that Central Committee can be regarded as philosopher-kings. Perhaps Plato is more important here than I realized when I first mentioned him.

I finished this last night, and I'm not sure what I want to say about it. I can say, for sure, that it got me thinking. I was expecting it to be mostly a tirade against dependence on technology, but it seemed to me to be more of a tirade against dependence on other people's ideas. I am left with the weird feeling that if the story (which is an indirect experience) caused me to re-evaluate how I think about things, that these changes are somehow less valid than if I'd been led to that re-evaluation through my own direct experiences. But that seems silly and maybe a little pretentious. I can't think of anything to say about the story that doesn't seem pretentious when I read it back to myself! I think I am sorely out of practice in reading things critically. :smack:

That brings up the question of whether E. M. Forster could properly be termed a Luddite. On first sight, it seems obvious, but upon reflection, his message seems deeper than a simple tirade against technology. What he really seem to deplore is allowing technology to become our masters rather than remaining our tool.

The other aspect of The Machine Stops that gives me pause is Forster's attitude toward religion. From what I can gather, he was an atheist, but there are passages in the story that seem to lament the loss of traditional religion. Perhaps he was similar in that respect to George Santayana, of whom someone once said that he "believes that there is no God and that Mary is His mother."*

E. M. Forster was certainly not a simple man.

<><><>

* Some say Bertrand Russell was the originator of that witticism, but I can find no verification for that, and most people who quote it give as its source simply "an anonymous wit."

I got the impression that the Central Committee was not actually a committee made up of humans, but rather another function of the Machine. The people seem far too passive to have been able to make executive decisions.

That was a very interesting comment. Thank you. I think I can understand what you mean. I noticed (mostly from reading - but I sort of knew Forster's view-point beforehand, too) that he puts much value into first-hand - and first and foremost, physical - experience. As we see in the story, only Kuno seeks out a true first-hand experience, while Vashti urges her listeners/viewers to seek inspiration (ideas) second-hand. It's rather like looking at a number of paintings of a sunrise and then create a painting based in that experience - rather than experienceing a real sunrise. I'm sure Forster would have wanted and expected the experience of the real sunrise.

I don't think you should feel your experience is less valid, though. It's one thing not to experience something physically which you could easily do - another to experience this story. In this case, I'd say the story is the original source 'idea'. I don't think the story is less valid than real sunrise - so to speak :)

As for myself. I've found this story was more or less the first time I've seen really interesting and valid arguments against the idea of the Internet. Oftentimes it's just 'technology is bad' kind of arguments - and really, what can you do with that? The Internet has opened up a new world to me, but everything has it's negative sides, too. This story showed me better than anything possible negative side effects. Not that it will necessarily happen - but this story opens up ideas in my mind.

All in all, this story was - somewhat - mindblowing - especially because it's so old. I've read a great deal of Forster's writing some 18-20+ years ago - but not until now do I really 'get' what he was about. And I'm quite impressed - and also because it's given me new ideas, suggested some new ways of thinking. There's little enough writing that does that.

I don't think he is/was a luddite. I think in all his stories he was mainly concerned with direct and true emotional experience. As he shows in this story, 'the machine' can hamper this experience. He doesn't seem to hate it, more bemoan that humans can no longer see the difference. The machine is not the problem - it is the way that humans react to and deal with the machine that is the problem. Macines are not our problem - it's our (in)ability to deal with those machines.

I don't know if he was either - but he grew up in a time when religion was much in dispute. I think if you really know the myths and the stories of religion (for example the bible) you are able to both say and understand some things at a greater depth with less words than if you don't know it. Just like using the words of a culture. I don't know what Forster wanted, but I think that perhaps his critisism of early 20th century British society, made him - to some degree - critisise religion as well. My feeling though, is that Forster mainly critisised society; it's ideas, culture, religion. I don't think he opposed religion in itself - but 'only' the impact it had on society. Perhaps that's also why he's so sarcastic with regards to the machine becoming a religion in this story.

Hello -oo -oO!

Anybody there -ere -eRE...?!

Some of you were so keen on discussing this story, but the discussion seems to have run out like the sand so quickly and silently... Don't you have anything more to say/ask/question/suggest/put forth/point out/etc.?

A thought that occurred to me was regarding parallels between 'The Machine Stops' and 'A Passage to India' (a previous MRBC choice) - Cyril Feilding, the Britisher who tries to break out of his social constraints and connect with the Indians, is similar to Kuno who is also trying to break out of his environment. In a sense they are both seeking to bring about a paradigm shift.
There may also be resonances between the books around 'spirituality v religion' - in the way Godbole, in 'A Passage to India', seeks deeper truths than the face of religion presents - but I haven't delved very far into that aspect of comparisons between the works.

It is interesting to consider what concerns of Forster's occupy him so much that they manifest themselves in more than work.

I think They're all Gone with the Wind.

It certainly is. I've just finished first proof-read of 'Maurice', which I've recently scanned (13-14 years since I read it last), so I'm sort of steeped in Forster at the moment. Am re-reading and proof-reading again right now.

I think themes such as 'spirituality vs religion' and 'culture vs nature' are probably the core themes of his works, so it's no wonder that you recognise it - in this instance in 'Passage to India'. That breaking with social constraints is - I would say - almost typical for Forster. It also typically shocks almost everyone else, as is the case here.

As for religion vs spirituality, I personally have too little experience with either and find it diffiult to understand it - though the ideas seem to be there.

Forster puts much worth in nature, natural instincts, over - especially - class+culture, but also intellect and logic. Kuno leaps over the boundaries to discover a new world - mostly driven by curiosity and inquisitiveness, while his mother reads/views other people's work and has no wish to go out, to experience for herself. Kuno is like the excited student, while she is the jaded lecturer, who've seen it all before. It is her (and her generation's) downfall that she has stopped recognising the signs of change.

People seemed so enthusiastic before the discussion.

One of the greatest shortcomings of Vashti's generation was that they had lost the ability to think for themselves and chose instead to invest blind faith in authority. They had forgotten that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Of course. I do not disagree.

Love that line/quote/idea!

It is a great idea, and as a quotation is most frequently (and inaccurately) found in that form. The exact quote is:

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt."
— John Philpot Curran (24 July 1750 – 14 October 1817), Irish politician. From his speech upon "The Right of Election" (1790), published in Speeches on the late very interesting State Trials (1808)

Maybe that was a price they thought worth paying. Given the choice between a contented life and a free life, many people might choose the former.
In the end, we're shown one generation suffering for their complacency, but many generations would have lived contented lives beforehand.

It is not necessary for everyone that they must be free in order to be happy.
In many ways we shackle ourselves throughout our lives.

:thanks: