Discussion Thread: The Time Traders (spoilers)
 

Hi All,

Yes.. lets discuss this month book club selection. You all read it right.

MODS... please sticky this thread and unsticky HOTBs thread. Thanks.

BOb

I'd like to thank Madam Broshkina for the version I downloaded from MR for my CyBook. The cover was lovely, and the quality of the text excellent.
:thanks:

As to the story, I found it an easy read but not a particularly gripping one. Within the first few pages I was a bit confused about the way Norton handled a pilot suit - at one moment it seemed outlandish, and the next it was treated as an everyday item. I don't know whether this was supposed to presage the alien suit we encounter later in the story - but I suspect nothing so subtle was intended.
The plot stretches the reader's disbelief, and there is very little attempt to explain the scientific basis of the time travel. Similarly, there seemed little attempt to give any depth to the characters. Another drawback is that it is the first in a series, so the resolution is incomplete.
There were a few moments of impressively imaginative writing that raised it above the level of average SF pulp imho. I'm glad I read it, but it wasn't enough to spur me into reading the rest of the series. 6/10

ok. :)

I thought it was a fun read, but it didn't draw me in or make me care about the characters. I thought that some elements of the plot were confusing, but this may just be a generational thing. It's hard for me to think of "The Reds" as a unilateral force as opposed to a ragtag collection of communist countries such as exists today.

I didn't get some of the technology, either. I'm willing to put up with hand-waving and technobabble when things are explained, but there was not much exposition, it was just there.

I also don't care how macho someone is supposed to be, at a certain point of physical trauma or abuse, people go into shock and/or die. The firewalking scene was especially ridiculous.

I did like the way the author dealt with the bronze age stuff. There is a tendency among some authors to portray ancient people as stupid, and I did not see too much of that.

If other volumes in the series are available for $5 or less in a format that I can use, I might be convinced to purchase and read them.

I hadn't read The Time Traders since I was in high-school (30+ years ago). I was surprised by a number of things that I either didn't notice at the time or forgot in the interim.

The first of these was what an anti-social hard-case Ross Murdock was, at least at the beginning. I remembered him as a tough guy, but not as a "record as long as your arm, cynical about the system, out for himself" type. This, in turn, led me to wonder about his conversion to an enthusiastic team-member. Stopping the Red agent's getaway fit his character as presented. His stated reason -- "Because I don't like the setup on his side of the fence." -- is a perfect fit. Reading farther, I found that Norton presented the change as (more or less) the opportunity to do something well in the company of competent people who value his contribution.

My next bit of surprise was that none of the team questioned the rightness of taking derelict technology from the "Baldies." On reflection, it fits the attitudes of the '50s when the book was written. Keeping up with (or beating) "the Reds" was often seen as a matter of national survival, so many folks didn't ask too many inconvenient questions. That said, excavating a multi-thousand-year-old wreck is one thing (in my view); helping yourself to a wreck whose owners are still around is quite another. I was disappointed that no character even questioned whether it was a good ethical choice. Do any of the rest of you have strong opinions on this issue?

I too was pleased to see the people of the past treated as real, ordinary folk with just as much intelligence as the next guy. Far too many authors get that one wrong even now.

Over all, a fun read but certainly not great literature.

Xenophon

Norton was more of a Science Fantacist than Fictionalist. She often would use rubber science in order to get her stroy moving. She was always more interested in the people and their struggles. That said, one of the tings about her writing that was repetitive was that there always seems to have been an "epic journey" or two where one or more characters has to move from point A to point B and overcome the environment, the enemy, and themselves as the real goal. In this case it happens at least three times. I like her stories a lot, mostly because of the pleasant childhood memories of the reads I had with her way back then. This is not her best story, but it is prototypical Norton.

Time Traders was an interesting story. It was hard to place "when" it occurred. But apparently the cold war is still going on.

I do agree that Ross quickly decided to be a team player.

The comments here about stuff just being paralleled some of my thoughts. A little back story would have helped. Where did they get the time travel stuff. How did they know the reds had it. What has changed. How do you know if the future has been changed. I'm not sure if any of this back story is provided in later stories.

Also, I don't think the book condoned striping the ship. Remember it was the reds doing this dirty deed.

I am not a fan of people being so badly damaged, tired, uncomfortable for so long and still being able to win fights and such.

I also don't think the reds would have just dumped Ross in a hole to die. They would probably shoot him in the head.

The story didn't seem organized to me. It seemed to jump around quite a bit. There was also alot of supposition without any basis. Where the aliens tracking Ross using the suit or was it his paranoia? We the aliens in Ross's head or was he just going batty?

I do not plan to read more in this series.

BOb

I was a bad girl and read "The Time Machine" instead. Which, by the way, was pretty awesome.

There's still time to read The Time Traders. (pun intended)

BOb

That was a terrificly bad pun.

Thanks. Karma is gratefully accepted.

BOb

I would, but apparantly you were the last person I gave Karma to, you greedy man :p

I've just discovered that two other books in the series are available from Project Gutenberg, "Key Out of Time" and "The Defiant Agents."

Isn't there also Galactic Derelict. There are a few others but I don't think written by Norton.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n/andre-norton/

BOb

Galactic Derelict is part of the series, but it's not on Project Gutenberg. I don't know if that's because it's still in the works at P.G. or if the copyright was renewed and it's not eligible.

It is interesting because these books were all written fairly recently...

Time Traders
1. The Time Traders (1958)
2. Galactic Derelict (1959)
3. The Defiant Agents (1962)
4. Key Out of Time (1963)

...and Norton died in 2005 according to fantasticfiction. So, they should all still be in copyright. I know that Time Traders is in the baen free library. Perhaps others were on the Baen CDs?

BOb

I surprised myself by finishing the book. The first page put me off it with the description of Murdock, and it never really got much better. The whole cold war, anti USSR tone was overdone, f'r example the assumption that the only way the Russians could be technologically advanced would be with the help of alien technology rankled; and the speed that Murdoch decided to be a teamplayer because he didn't like the other side seemed like just so much propaganda. I know it was written in the 50s, and may have been less remarkable then, but to a reader now it jars.

It was fast paced, but there was no real substance to it. I won't be reading the rest of the series. In fact I was hoping they'd all get shot down in a ball of fire when they got back to Earth.

Yikes, kind of glad I skipped on it.

Galactic Derelict is available at Feedbooks.

Galactic Derelict is also the second half of the volume "The Time Traders" that you can download free from the Baen Free Library. Lots of formats, no DRM, no cost... what's not to like?

Xenophon

I would call the Time Traders a typical science fiction book of the 1950’s; not particularly exciting today but would have been a better read in the 50’s. At first I did not think I would finish it but I am glad I stuck it out. :book2:

Time Traders, by far, was one of the worst books I've ever had the misfortune of reading. That is really all I have to say.


/rant

Honestly, I'd like to know more about your opinions. I've enjoyed reading your opinions over the past several months very much.

Did anything address the current world events, such as the beginnings of the Cold War and nuclear arms race?

Was Civil Rights and racial discrimination against man or alien touched upon?

Or Equal Rights for women?

Did anything ring true and apply to today as well as it did to the 50's?

Or was the book truly just a fluffy bit of escapism?

I know you weren't addressing this at me...

There were women in that universe? :blink: ;)

Galactic Derelict is on Feedbooks.

Time Trader, OKay, a quick read.

I found Time Trader to be a bit of fluff. I did read the second book in the series and it wasn't any better.

The premise of the book seemed to take a lot of that for granted rather than exploring anything in depth. The "Reds" weren't explained much beyond being a force against which the agents had to fight. I think the book would have been more interesting if anyone (other than the fellow near the beginning who turns out to be a spy) had questioned this state of affairs. I suspect that Ms. Norton would have been labeled a communist sympathizer if she'd done that, however.

Those issues don't seem to have been on the author's mind, either. There were two Agents of Asian descent, and it seems to be assumed that this would be sufficient for them to blend in in any Asian country, which I found a bit hard to swallow. While most Westerners have difficulty discerning between different Asian ethnic groups, it pushed my suspension of disbelief to think that they'd take care to make sure that the blond Scandinavian-looking fellows went to Nordic countries, but any Asian person would blend in with the Tartars. :smack:

I only remember two women in the book, the priestess in the beginning and the healer women who helps Murdock when he loses his memory. Despite the author being female, she approached things very much as the male authors did so at the time, and did not give much consideration to female characters.

I originally did not remember reading this book, but after reading half way through, remembered it. It was much more fun reading it as an early teen in a time when the Red Menace was still extant, than as a jaded middle ager in the post Reagan Era. I also remember the suit being more cool back then. I am going to read the rest of the series, mostly because I want to either resurrect pleasant memories of Andre, or kill them off all togehter. Although, I do enjoy the series she collaborated with Sasha Miller on, something like Oak Thorn, Yew and Ash... That may be more to do with Sasha being a friend and mentor than with Andre, though.

I think it was pretty obvious... Reds = Russians = Communists. Remember the cold war... that's when this was written. I guess you don't think of your book being read 50+ years later.

BOb

I thought it was strange that space travel was described as impossible; that would have been shown to be wrong within a couple of years of publication.

But the Van Allen belt was discovered in early 1958 - so maybe, at the time, it was considered an insuperable barrier to manned missions, and Norton was incorporating that idea.

Of course, part of the reason that there was no in depth characterization or analysis of the setting was that SF publishers of the time had strict limits on the length of the novel unless you were someone like Heinlein or Clarke. They wanted a short paperback they could sell for 25 to 50 cents.

Time Traders: Typical 50's Sci-Fi
 

Growing up, I devoured science fiction stories written in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of these stories featured a fairly stagnant civilization, where individuals were very comfortable, but passive. Only "scoundrels" who operated at the fringes of society had the necessary skills to cope with threats, such as alien invasions and Russian or Chinese socialist plots.

The introduction of Murdock was clumsy: I would have preferred an extra page or two to introduce the character. The pace was quick, with plenty of action. The anti-Russian / Cold War tone was not a problem for me: it was typical of much of the fiction at the time.

Equal rights for women? Women were ignored in stories such as these, or were minor characters or waiting wide-eyed at home for their men. And as a woman, I am not offended: again, it was typical of the fiction at that time. (One of the reasons I love Robert Heinlein stories: his women worked alongside their men and were competent! :thumbsup:)

I am glad I read the story, and plan to download the Baen version to read Galactic Derelict. I will not pursue the stories after that.

Thanks for taking me down memory lane! :)

Sherri

I was initially excited about the ideas/challenges put forward, but soon found that the story was just a listing of these ideas - no further explanations or theories. Basically a straight forward us-against-them-story, where neither the characters nor the supposed solutions of each battle was described convincingly. I will not read the rest of the series...