Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...
 

It's 2016!

Kindle Page Numbers have been a thing for years!

Are you are grumpy as I am about lazy publishers not doing the single hour of work that is involved in adding real page numbers based on the most recent or most popular printed edition?

Let's have a Poll! :thumbsup:

Not all e-books have paper counterparts.

Now one silly question, what makes you say it would take an hour to put in page numbers? That sounds like a long time.

The main reason for no page numbers is because the reader can adjust the font so one might be on two pages at once or it might take up to ten page turns to do one page.

Oh and even some paper books have different page counts depending on the font the publisher used.

IIRC about 50 locations is a page.

No, I'm not grumpy. I like page numbers in my e-books, but I want them based on my own personal settings, not on any print edition. Many of my books don't even have a print edition. So I use the page count plugin in Calibre and I'm perfectly happy with that. I sideload all my books anyway, so it's no chore.

I just go by the percentage, or scale, or dots... what ever the program I'm reading with shows me. I don't really care if it matches the page count of the physical copy, if there even is one.

I also use Calibre, and check page count there or check Amazon to see what page count they list. But once I start reading the various progress reports work just fine with me.

I have seen where there's the very small page numbers at the side of the text, and I don't like them there. They just feel in the way and don't make sense when I can adjust the font and font size. Then a 'page' doesn't really have much meaning.

Page numbers in an ebook really aren't at all necessary for me when reading. I can understand some instances where they would be nice but they rarely apply to me.

I prefer the progress line at the bottom of the screen and a simple percent complete value. Although I would prefer it if the percent was based on actual book content and didn't include things like "bonus" chapters for other books.

Also, even though epubs default to showing a page number (unlike Amazon), it isn't necessarily tied to a specific print edition and defaults to 1 page = 1024 (+/-) characters, so will almost certainly not line up with any printed copy, so this is not an Amazon specific issue.

I find that 15 locations per page is about average for the books I read.

You think it takes solely an HOUR? We just did 4 conversions from PDF. In order to ensure that all the internal x-refs worked (there were dozens of pages of indices, myriad tables containing references and image captions), we embedded the "page number" for each section of text that matched the PDF that we were given. This may, or may not, match the printed book. If there's solely ONE, you understand. If, like many non-fiction books, there are myriad versions, well...that's just too bad, isn't it?

To make those internal references work, we have to embed an id, that looks like this:

So that the text references will go where they are--sorta--intended to go. So that if there's an image caption that says, "see this about that, p.12," we can create a link for the p.12 text, and link it to the id, you see above. This particular book only had 162 pages; but we've done them with 800 pages. It's not an hour's work. It's more. (Plus checking, double-checking, etc.)

Now, of course--the sentence or item on the old Page 12 that may contain information that's of use to the new reader may now be 1, 2, 3 or more "page flips" away from the location of that ID number, because those "page numbers" are based on page "print" size--say, 5.5x8, or one of those.

The same thing is true of the thousand-plus index items at the rear. We'll get them somewhat in the vicinity...but not closer than that.

There's no good, systematic and cross-platform way to do this, with "page numbers." John Doe may have a hardcover, Susie Smith the mass-market PPBK, and Janie January the trade PPBK. And then, of course, there are Library versions. Whose book will match? Which version will be used to create the faux page number IDs?

If we add it based on the most popular version-what if it's not the most recent? And vice-versa?

There is, currently, no really great way to insert "page numbers" for the purposes of footnoting, annotating, and the like. A competent way would be to use the Kindle's Location numbers for external work, as they are far more precise than page numbers will ever be.

This doesn't even address the challenges of putting in glossaries or indices that have entries with many-to-one scenarios, e.g., one item of text in the body of the book has multiple index entries going TO it. The blithe assumption that, of course, EVERYONE has a back button isn't correct; "everyone" doesn't have a back button. That means that the bookmaker and the publisher have to figure out HOW on earth they'll get John Doe researcher from the leap to an entry (that has multiple index entries pointing TO it) back to where he was in the Index.

It's just not as simple, in terms of mechanics and implementation and user-friendliness, as people seem to think it is. As I said earlier, Location #'s, from Amazon, are far more accurate and less fungible than paper "page numbers."

FWIW.


Hitch

I'm always happy to have page numbers but when I read with Moon+ it gives me a percentage as well as a fraction where the numerator is the number of pages into this chapter and the total number of pages in this chapter. I like this a lot better.

Truth is I like a good indication of my location in the book but it's far from critical. It's just nice when it's there.

Barry

Not grumpy here. For me they don't really add anything to my reading experience.

Meh, 1st world problem.

I noticed my ebooks didn't have page numbers on the first book I read, gave it about 3 seconds of thought and moved on.

I hate locations and like page numbers. However since the Kindle added amount of time left in the chapter or book it's not a big enough deal that I would abandon that author or publisher.

Lack of page numbers doesn't bother me at all. I'm happy with time left to read and percentage read.

if you want page numbers for all of your eBooks, then I suggest you switch to a Reader that uses RMDSK (ADE). This way all of your eBooks will have page numbers.

This is not "news". I am baffled by what makes the original poster think that his opinion about Kindle page numbers does constitute "news". Moved to the "General Discussions" forum.

Physical book pages numbers are artifacts of a physical book. They differ even between different formats and editions of print books. They have nothing to do with an actual page of on an ereader. If you want the same page numbers as a physical book, read the physical book. If you want page numbers in your ebooks and don't care whether they relate to any particular issue of the equivalent print book (If there is any equivalent edition) then JSWOLF made a suggestion above, which, hardly surprisingly, would involve you moving to epub. PDF's also are usually replica's of a print book and its layout, but is not the best format for reading ebooks on an ereader.

In my opinion, this is about as important as whether or not to use 999 grains of sugar in one's morning cup of coffee. Or to use 1000 grains...or 768.

If I had to worry about page numbers in a book, I think I would probably kill myself.....perhaps twice...just to make certain I succeeded.

:D:D:):)

I like page numbers. Even though they're inconsistent, they track reasonably well within genres and they give me a far better sense of how long a book is than Amazon's reading time indicator, which doesn't reflect my own idiosyncrasies very well. I also prefer to do my own percentage calculation, which can differ significantly in a book heavy with notes and index. I even think I retain a book slightly better, when I can mentally relate the text to position in a book; the percentage doesn't serve that purpose for me. Finally, page numbers make it easier to switch between devices without syncing.

Lack of page numbers doesn't keep me from reading a book, but I prefer the experience with page numbers.

Page numbers have no meaning when dealing with dynamic textual content.

I prefer sweet & low in my coffee.
Though not sure the grain count.
I do like percentages in a book.

I do not care about page numbers I keep my voyage on how many minutes are left in the chapter.

I prefer a page number to a percentage or time remaining, but I don't much care whether it is a 'real' page number from some unspecified paper version of the book or a synthetic page number generated by the ereader.

But much more useful to me would be progress indicators and stats based on word counts, which would remain meaningful across all formats of the book whether paper, ebook, or audiobook.

My Kindles (scaled) Reading Progress bar is all I need. It even has pips at the chapter points.

Anchors are all that is needed to land at a specific (TOC, Index, Glossary) point.

Page numbers are so overrated :p :p :p :rofl:

I prefer no progess indicator of any kind be visible while I'm reading. I may bring it up (manually) on very rare occasions to see how far along I am, but most often, I simply don't want to know how far away I am from the end of anything--chapter, section, or book. I love flying blind. No plot assumptions based on how "thick" the remaining "pages" are on the right side. I wasn't able to achieve that level of blissful ignorance with physical books, so that's just one more thing for the "why I switched to ebooks" column. ;)

Don't think I ever checked/looked at the page numbers, if present.

The progress bar when brought up manually is more important. BUT the most important item is the MoonReader's micro status bar that showed how much battery is left in percentage; let's me think about when to charge up at the end of the chapter/section.

The other item is MoonReader's ability to set the bookmark by just touching the upper right corner "somewhere"; very convenient.

Don't care for Page or % Most time I set to Blank. When books done its done I move on to the next

I've never used page numbers when reading on an electronic device.

I prefer page numbers , lacking that then percentages of how far I am along in a book. I never pay attention to how far along I am in a chapter. Or reading speed. I just want to know how far along I am in a book.

I agree with you 100%. Once you get used to using ADE style page numbers, they give you a good indication how long a book might be. It also gives you a good indication how far along you are and how much left you have. Locations don't do this. Percentages don't do this because 50% of one book is not the same as 50% of another book. ADE page numbers are fairly consistent which is why you get a sense of length and a sense of how much left. And the good thing is AD page numbers to not rely on text size, screen size, margins, line height, or what font is used.

Sorry you made the poll only about Kindle books. This means I cannot vote as I read ePub.

I'm sure you'll get over the disappointment one day.

But it will be FAR in the future.

And he can write a book about his Great Disappointment, publish it and make millions. So I say the OP is doing him a favor...

:rofl:

But look on the bright side. You've managed to take the opportunity to engage in some evangelism for EPub and even ADE. Impressive.

Having said that, it appears that the vast majority like to have some indication of progress at least available to them if not visible. Some do prefer that indication to be page numbers. Only the OP seems to want page numbers identical with the page numbers in some edition of a print book.

What surprises me is that I almost never use page numbers in a print (fiction) book, either. Sure, if I am setting a "mental" bookmark, I want to know a page number; but I'm more likely to simply slap a physical bookmark in it than I am to stare at the page number, pondering the imponderable mysteries of how long it will take me to read the rest, or, that MUCH bigger question--how many pages left in the chapter?

I don't get the obsession with "real" page numbers. Other than non-fic bookmarking/footnotes/reference indicia, what difference does it make? The idea of a page, in an eBook, is so far beyond illusory that it's absurd. Hell, you wouldn't even likely get the same page counts for the same book on a Voyage and a PPW, and those two are 1st-degree cousins.


{shrug}

Hitch

Page numbers are only useful in academic citations, as a legacy burden of paper formats. :D :D

Thinking back, I never really notice them at all -- even Time Left To Read which is Kindle's superior alternative, is something I don't actually notice as much as I thought I might.

I might not go quite as far as DiapDealer went, but he raises an interesting point nonetheless:

Hitch and eschwartz. As happens regularly, I find myself in agreement with both of you. So-called "real" page numbers are meaningless. In an epub or mobi type ebook where the reader has some control over attributes like the font size, page numbers are arbitrary and just one of any number of means of giving the reader some idea of their progress. As DiapDealer pointed out, there is no need for this to even be visible at all times, though preferences will vary.

The other and more essential purpose served by page numbers was for purposes of reference, citation etc. In EBooks page numbers are once again less than ideal. The problem is not new or unique. In common law legal systems where case law precedents are important citations were traditionally to pages of published law reports, sometimes to a passage as small as a paragraph. When such case law took to the net this became ridiculous and unworkable. This Wikipedia article discusses the various solutions adopted, some themselves far from ideal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_c...utral_citation It may be that we do need some format neutral citation standard for all books. If so, I will leave it for those more informed than myself as to what the best standard may be.

Of course! With great intelligence comes the great responsibility of agreeing with other mental giants around you. <snicker>.



I've always thought that having a calculation, if it could be put in the firmware, so you could push a button (tap, whatever) asking "how much time left in chapter," or "how many pages remaining," or something, would be more useful than the print page number/location/ADE page number kerfuffle. OTOH, when I think about that, it starts feeling a little too twee.

I confess I am replying to this prior to scoping out the Wikipedia article, but I've always thought that IF (and, hooooooooooo boy, is this a pipe dream in this regard) we could get Amazon, iBooks, B&N, etc., to all agree (or...maybe the IDPF???) that a PAGE = X characters, we could cut through a boatload of this s**t. I mean, it is relatively simple, albeit time-consuming to create id's for each new page. And, in fact, if I knew that it was going to be X characters, we could write a clip to do this auto-magically. Then, page X would be the SAME DAMN PAGE on every e-reader. We can't do it with printed pages, because, as pointed out, those are different in each edition, as well.

If TPTB in eBooking could just say, for this ONE purpose--for research, citations, et al, we all concur that a page is equivalent to the character count of 250 words (say, 1250 chars plus X for the usual/typical spaces between words)...how could that be easier? Yes, we'd all have to agree that the count starts with the first word of the first chapter, or something, but still...that would solve a crapload of problems in citations. I think, sometimes, about people trying to have a coherent discussion with Peter on an iPad, Joe on an iPhone, Suzie on a B&N Color HD, Janie on an older Nook color, and Fred (of course it's Fred) on a Kobo Aura, or whatever. What a damn nightmare.

Right now, you have to agree on the "printed version" numbering, and go from there. bookmakers like me have to go in and plug in the page number ID's at the commencement of each page, based on what the INDD export pumps out, OR, manually, if we're going from PDF.

It's ridiculous. This is one of those topics that really makes my blood boil because it would be bloody easy to solve. AND, the agreement wouldn't "hurt" anyone, because *everyone* would be accommodating it, as no one currently is using that mechanism. No one of the retailers would be lording it over the others--they could all whine about it equally. The very definition of compromise! :-)

</mini-rant>

Hitch

Now I track page counts, I do find it mildly annoying when a book doesn't have them, but it never bothered me at all before they did that. As a reader I really only care about two things: the overall scale of the project, and how far through it I am. Both of those were handled reasonably well by my kindle before they added page number support. The dot trail told me if a book was long, and the percentage told me where I was. I guess by adding real page numbers they've actually stopped people from becoming familiar with Locations.

At the moment, it's slightly more annoying to me when a book does have page numbers but they are hopelessly inaccurate. I've just finished a "622-page" ePub whose shortest paper equivalent is 719 pages. It means I need to decide whether to correct for the inaccuracy or just go with the lower count. I've done the latter this time, but the former with other recent examples.

That's suspiciously like the way Kobos handle pages etc.


ERROR : missing opening tag: <mini-rant> :)

BobC

ADE does this now. It does use 1024 compressed characters = 1 page. B&N uses ADE so they already do this. It's iBooks that cannot do proper page numbers and Kindle that does make believe page numbers (when they bother to do page numbers).

This is not something particular to Kobo. It's part of RMDSK (ADE) that Kobo, B&N, Sony, and others use.