September 2012 Discussion: A Thousand Miles Up the Nile / Amelia Edwards (spoilers)
 

Let's discuss the September 2012 MobileRead Book Club selection, A Thousand Miles Up the Nile by Amelia Edwards. What did you think?

I thought this was a fabulous book (which is why I nominated it). I enjoyed it for many reasons, a few of which I've listed below:

1. Its descriptions of the long-gone world of Victorian travel - a world before mass tourism.

2. The fact that it's about Egypt - probably my favourite place in the world, and one which I know well. It was fascinating to read the descriptions of the Egyptian temples as they were in the mid 19th century (basically half-buried in the sand) and compare that with the way they are now.

3. I very much enjoy the "Amelia Peabody" books of Elizabeth Peters, a character firmly based on that of Amelia Edwards, and I wanted to get to know the original.

4. It's simply a very well-written book, as we should of course expect from a lady who was herself a popular and successful novelist. (If you read my "Christmas Stories" anthology by Charles Dickens, in the MR library, you'll find a number of items in there written by Amelia Edwards.)

I thoroughly enjoyed this book, although I strongly suspect that it wouldn't appeal to everyone. I'd love to hear what other people thought about it.

I love this book!

Amelia Edwards is a marvellous writer who gives us detailed descriptions of her travels which have a photographic intensity of realism. I'll not soon forget her wonderful kaleidoscopic descriptions of the streets of Cairo. One feels actually present.

These Victorians knew how to write! :):):)

I'm still struggling with it, but I find the occasional injections of humor redeeming.

I am about half-way through, and am juggling Amelia and Virgil at the moment!

I agree absolutely about the wonderful, detailed descriptions, and the fascination in hearing what the monuments were like back then, half-buried in sand. A couple of random notes I have made as I read:

* I loved the humour in the description of the multitude of men, boys and donkeys on the bank. But of course to the Egyptians, it was a chance to earn a bit of money and so very serious.

* The prostrate colossus of Rameses the Great and Memphis being only "barren mounds among the palms". I wonder if it was this sight that was the inspiration for Shelley's "Ozymandias"? (Probably everyone knows that poem, but if not, it's worth googling - very powerful.)

* Her description of a camel train which to her was picturesque but to me is horrifying,
as 70 camels were carrying 14 foot elephant tusks, packed in half-dozens, one pack on each side, which would represent about 420 big elephants having been slaughtered. That isn't a criticism of her of course as it was seen as perfectly acceptable to kill elephants for the ivory, but to us it is shocking - an example of how perceptions change over time.

* And I must add how much I am enjoying the beautiful and detailed illustrations too.

I haven't finished this book in time, I am about halfway through. This time I'm struggling a little bit with the English language, but that's of course my fault and not that of Amelia Edwards. It's simply more difficult to read than other English books, perhaps because of all the Arab references and the many descriptions.

Until now I like it. I find it very interesting but sometimes a little bit too detailed.

I don't know if you've seen it, but sun surfer posted her (lengthy) opinion here quite a while ago already:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...ostcount=14155

A book something like this is Letters From Egypt: A Journey on the Nile 1849-1850 by Florence Nightingale. But her book--interesting though it is and containing excellent illustrations--has less coherence than that of Edwards. I think this is mainly owing to the fact that Amelia Edwards was also a novelist. Note what a great job she does in Chapter 3 where we get details about the crew: their customs, life-style and economy, their relationships with the travellers, their likes and dislikes and even their music. What Edwards does is to create a cast of characters, We have the crew, the Captain, who is a class above them, and, at the apex, the owner who is described vividly as:

". . . a magnificent broad-shouldered Arab of about six feet nine, with a delightful smile, the manners of a gentleman, and the rapacity of a Shylock."

In the background there is the implied rivalry with the French who get a head start and the "compact" with the Miss B's who remain with them for 800 miles of the trip.

So this is more than a travelogue; It is a quest, a journey into time from one culture to another.

And of course we as readers over a century later add another layer to that.

What a great book! :bookworm: :2thumbsup

One episode I thought was interesting was when one of the gentlemen in her party, while out shooting, accidentally shoots a local woman. When the local villagers (not unnaturally) get a little upset about this, and threaten the man, it is they who get severely punished, while the man who did the shooting gets off scott free. A sign of the times, indeed! If an English gentleman shoots you, it's your fault for getting in the way of the bullet, perhaps.

While doing my father's family history, I found a case where a 12 year old boy in 1905 was struck and killed by a car. He was leading a horse down the road of his village in Sussex and was hit on the head by the high mudguard of the car, which came up behind him. There was an inquest, the result of which was a verdict of accidental death and the driver was told to take more care in the future.

So English peasants were pretty dispensable too!

I'll echo what I wrote in the Reading Rec thread when I first finished it earlier this month:

And onto this thread:

Yes, I mentioned that as well in the earlier post above because it really took me aback. Not that it happened; I have to say I wasn't so surprised by that, but by the way the author described it. I want to like the writer, but I find her reaction to it all questionable. Of course why should we assume the author would be any different than the average upper-class Brit of the time period, but still, it's a bit jarring when you start to see the ugly side, first-hand from the ugly side.

That she would decide to include it is one matter, as even if she had found the whole situation very unjust to the villagers, it was an interesting cultural incident from a viewpoint of the villagers' reactions and the lawmakers' reactions. But that she would decide to include it, and then describe it as she did, is another.

I find no fault in her first instinct with the rest of the boat of fending off the angry villagers and wanting their friend's safety at that moment. But everything after that is questionable. That she had no negative feelings about her friend reporting the villagers, knowing that they'd probably get into deep trouble for it, and treating a baby almost dying as a "cute" little story about how her friend bandaged it up filled with benevolent condescension. And that she had no negative feelings about her friend's actions in being "shocked" at the first suggestion of punishment by the lawmakers yet just fine with the lesser punishment of so many strikes. It just seemed all in bad taste and though I must remember the times it still surprised me after getting to know the author through the first part of the book.

ETA - But nevertheless very interesting anthropologically from the point of view of an incident that really happened between the peoples of two different cultures some 150 years ago.

Having read Ch 19 I can see why the sensibilities of readers should be so offended. For me, the fact that this incident--which could have resulted in a fatality--was treated in such an anecdotal style was upsetting.

At the same time, Amelia Edwards does voice her shame at the fact that the arrested offenders were brought before the Governor in chains.

"The gaoler marched first, followed by two soldiers. Then came the fifteen prisoners – I am ashamed to write it! – chained neck to neck in single file."

I think that "The Idle Man" is well named. I believe he found that making a complaint embroiled him in further responsibilities which he didn't expect and which would also prevent him from washing his hands of the entire affair; he discovered that he would be directly responsible for the punishment and its intensity.

"One can imagine how the Idle Man felt at this moment.

Sentence being pronounced, the fourteen looked as if they could hardly believe their ears ; while the fifteenth, though condemned to his one hundred and fifty strokes ("seventy-five to each foot," specified the Governor), was overjoyed to be let off so easily.

He was then flung down ; his feet were fastened soles uppermost ; and two soldiers proceeded to execute the sentence. As each blow fell, he cried: "God save the Governor! God save the Mudîr! God save the Howadji!"

When the sixth stroke had been dealt, the Idle Man turned to the Governor and formally interceded for the remission of the rest of the sentence. The Governor, as formally, granted the request ; and the prisoners, weeping for joy, were set at liberty."

{IMO} This should not be regarded as a nice happy ending--whatever the feelings of the visitors may have been. A Political dimension is added. The implication is that enjoyment of the English--possibly because of the money they bring and the political influence they have--is more important than any possible danger to the inhabitants.

"The Governor, the Mudîr, and the Idle Man then parted with a profusion of compliments ; the Governor protesting that his only wish was to be agreeable to the English, and that the whole village should have been bastinadoed, had his Excellency desired it." {emphasis added}

I feel that one must remember that Edwards is coming from a context in which the British Empire was seen as the major civilizing force in the world--that it was the duty of the English to bring "enlightenment" to the lands they colonized. Indeed England abolished slavery in Great Britain in 1772 and throughout the British Empire in 1833. Still, this "White Man's Burden" attitude was a delusion; one which Rudyard Kipling writing well after Edwards still held at the turn of the century:

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

So I would agree that this entire incident is useful as being revelatory about the author, the English attitude in general. and about the ruling structures of Egypt.

Not just the English, but the whole "colonial" attitude of the 19th and early 20th century.

Around 1915 or so, Howard Carter (the future discover of the tomb of King Tutankhamon) held the position of "Inspector of Antiquities" for the Luxor area (which includes the Valley of the Kings). One day, some drunken French tourists tried to force their way into one of the tombs, past the Egyptian guard who was on duty at the tomb. He wouldn't let them in, and Carter was sacked from his job by the (French) director of the Antiquities Service because he refused to discipline the guard for doing his duty. Laying hands on European visitors by blocking their entrance to the tomb was an unforgivable offence.

But we have to remember that, represensible as we find these attitudes, these people were a product of the society that they grew up in, and to them, this was the natural order of things. We really can't blame them for following the conventions of their society.

Yes, you make an excellent point. :thumbsup:

I have not yet read the whole book, but I am enjoying the discussion. Will have some more time today while waiting for an appointment.

I was surprised at the book's description of Dervishes as "howling dervishes". Whirling Dervishes I've heard, so-called because of the ecstatic dances performed by these Sufi ascetics, but never heard them described as howling.

There are different kinds of dervishes. Howling dervishes are just lesser known. They all believe in ecstatic devotion through continued exertion.

Thank you. I have learned something today. :)

Currently reading Black Swan Green (another bookclub choice) and haven't even started this yet :o.

I don't wish to start a religious discussion here, but I couldn't help but notice the similarities between the state of the dervish in that passage who was "struck by Mohammed" and those charismatic/pentecostal Christians here in the United States who have experienced being "slain in the Spirit." Even the language is similar.

I find all references to religion in this book highly interesting. They are in some way much more "pure" than what we today can read about the Islam.

i agree. I think that is because she is more reportorial in style; she tends to avoid judgmental comments concerning religious beliefs.

I am impressed by her skillfully organised vivid descriptive passages which combine evocative imagery and very precise detail. Here's a nice sample from Chapter 4:

"It might be thought there would be some monotony in such a scene, and but little beauty. On the contrary, however, there is beauty of a most subtle and exquisite kind – transcendent beauty of colour, and atmosphere, and sentiment ; and no monotony either in the landscape or in the forms of the pyramids. One of these which we are now approaching is built in a succession of platforms gradually decreasing towards the top. Another down yonder at Dahshûr curves outward at the angles, half dome, half pyramid, like the roof of the Palais de Justice in Paris. No two are of precisely the same size, or built at precisely the same angle ; and each cluster differs somehow in the grouping.

"Then again the colouring! – colouring not to be matched with any pigments yet invented. The Libyan rocks, like rusty gold – the paler hue of the driven sand-slopes – the warm maize of the nearer Pyramids which, seen from this distance, takes a tender tint of rose, like the red bloom on an apricot – the delicate tone of these objects against the sky – the infinite gradation of that sky, soft and pearly towards the horizon, blue and burning towards the zenith – the opalescent shadows, pale blue, and violet, and greenish-grey, that nestle in the hollows of the rock and the curves of the sand-drifts – all this is beautiful in a way impossible to describe, and alas! impossible to copy. Nor does the lake-like plain with its palm-groves and corn-flats form too tame a foreground. It is exactly what is wanted to relieve that glowing distance."

As is the case with so many Victorian writers she enjoys meditating on a scene and moralizing on its special meaning to her. As one would expect in Egypt, she is impressed with the huge sweep of time. Here are her comments on the "lesser" Pyramids:

"As for the Pyramid in platforms (which is the largest at Sakkârah, and next largest to the Pyramid of Khafra) its position is so fine, its architectural style so exceptional, its age so immense, that one altogether loses sight of these questions of relative magnitude. If Egyptologists are right in ascribing the royal title hieroglyphed on the inner door of this pyramid to Ouenephes, the fourth king of the First Dynasty, then it is the most ancient building in the world. It had been standing from five to seven hundred years when King Khufu began his Great Pyramid at Ghîzeh. It was over two thousand years old when Abraham was born. It is now about six thousand eight hundred years old according to Manetho and Mariette, or about four thousand eight hundred according to the computation of Bunsen. One's imagination recoils upon the brink of such a gulf of time."

Edwards give a great deal of detail on the material contained in each specific Chapter in the Table of Contents, which makes this an easy book to browse and return to favourite passages {something I see myself doing}.

Reminds me of her description of certain sights along her travels in the Sudanese city of Wady Halfeh:

"Words ... cannot translate colour." Well said.

I am still reading this and the first thing that stood out for me was that her writing reminded me of old family letters. Older members of the family would write in detail and we would "experience" the setting, people, and conversation, just like we were there.

Also, the pictures, that I zoom on my Fire, are fantastic.

It took me quite a while to finish this book but I liked it very much and found it highly interesting. Until now I don't know very much about ancient Egypt history but this book definitely has arisen an interest in this field.

As I've never been to Egypt this quote from the book
could have worked as a motto for my reading too. I can imagine that "A Thousand Miles Up the Nile" works as a perfect travel guide: it precisely describes what one sees today and what one could have seen along the same path about one hundred years ago. It must be fascinating to compare these two aspects on the spot.

So, Harry, thank you very much for proposing this book and "forcing" me to read something totally new, and thanks to all the others for voting for this book.

Yes, I second the thanks to Harry. I too have just finished reading the book and found it fascinating. Beautifully written and illustrated and giving a flavour of the attitudes of the time.

The event that others have written about already, where the Idle Man managed to inflict some apparently minor damage on a small child with his gun, seems to me to say a lot about the English of that time - well, probably Europeans generally - in terms of the need to report and have punished the fact that the natives dared to retaliate when the child was injured.

The brutal punishment inflicted on Aboriginals who dared to spear sheep for food (because the kangaroos had been slaughtered to make room for the sheep) and the savagery of the punishment if they actually killed or injured a white person were more extreme examples of the same attitude here in Australia. And of course the same sort of thing was happening in various other parts of the world.

It is appalling to us of course, but it was how things were at the time.

To finish on a happier note, I thought the way she ended the book was beautiful, with the image of the Nile melting into the distance and leading back to Thebes, Philae and Abou Simbel.

For what it's worth, The book didn't really work for me. I would rather the Club had chosen a more up to date and more readable account if it was going to go with a travelog. To me it appeared that no detail was trivial enough to be left out. I didn't need the exact measurements of every room they visited. But that's me. Different strokes, as they say.

But the formatting was nice.

I was the opposite. If I had wanted an up-to-date version of a place to visit, then I would have looked on the web for photos and information. This was something that I may have just skipped if it hadn't been chosen. I can also say that yes, I am of the impatient generation and my eyes do glaze over and I think "just get on with it", but I would just put the book down and come back to it later.
To me, this was a fascinating view of how people and places were described to those not there, especially when photos were not in use. There were no "vacation" photos to be shared with family and friends when you arrived home. Words painted and gave the picture. I think we have lost the art of doing this along with the art of being able to listen (or read).

I have a better understanding of historical accounts about people who had writing desks or boxes and spent daily time on their correspondence. I better understand why they were excited about any letter that arrived. A time when correspondence was excitedly received and different from today where we are overwhelmed by the amount of information all around us. A letter was cherished and read and reread, but today we pick and choose to read and delete or look and click to change sites/channels and then move on.
:2thumbsup And after saying all the above, I am still reading the book. :)