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pilotbob 06-23-2011 01:42 AM
Discussion: The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett
 
Time to discuss the Maltese Falcon....

BOb

GA Russell 06-23-2011 02:03 AM
To those of you who enjoyed The Maltese Falcon, may I recommend the Hammett short story it was based upon - Who Killed Bob Teal?

http://www.manybooks.net/titles/hamm...05bobteal.html

I read Falcon in 1972, and have seen the Bogart movie since. The movie really stuck in my mind, and I had to make an effort to visualize the characters as they were described in the book, rather than the actors. I feel that nearly all of the actors were way too old, particularly Mary Astor and Elisha Cook, Jr. Brigid told Spade initially that she was 21, so I figure that she was at most 25. And I put Wilmer at 19. Sidney Greenstreet was great, but not fat enough in my mind. Peter Lorre was the hardest to shake.

The movie did not make clear that Spade and Brigid were sleeping together, and as a result I felt that Spade's final monologue in the movie was out of the blue. The book made it all make sense. Was Falcon the first popular novel to have a bedroom scene?

Falcon was originally published in 1929 in a magazine (Black Mask?, I don't remember), before the Crash. I think that it is important to remember that Falcon is a Roaring Twenties story, not a depression era story.

For years I have considered Red Harvest to be a better story than Falcon, but I reread that one last year, and I would have to say now that I like Falcon much more.

I read once years ago that Sam Spade was the first popular protagonist that was nobody's idea of a hero (the "anti-hero"); i.e., he was sleeping with his partner's wife, and then dropped her when he got tired of her.

sun surfer 06-23-2011 02:03 AM
I thought it was OK.

Spoiler - I really thought as I was reading that the young hoodlum working for Gutman was going to turn out to be his daughter in disguise. Did anyone else think this? I know it'd be a somewhat preposterous twist unless his daughter was pretty masculine, but the way they described the hoodlum was as very small and feminine, and with the same hair colour as the daughter. I even went google-searching afterwards to see what others thought about that point, but I was shocked to find nada online (from my limited search). Did he mean that as a red herring, or was it just coincidence? Because in the end it didn't matter one way or another really.

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Russell (Post 1624663)
To those of you who enjoyed The Maltese Falcon, may I recommend the Hammett short story it was based upon - Who Shot Bob Teal?

I read Falcon in 1972, and have seen the Bogart movie since. The movie really stuck in my mind, and I had to make an effort to visualize the characters as they were described in the book, rather than the actors. I feel that nearly all of the actors were way too old, particularly Mary Astor and Elisha Cook, Jr. Brigid told Spade initially that she was 21, and Gutman's hotel clerk pegged her as 17, thinking that she was his daughter. So I figure that she was at most 25. And I put Wilmer at 19. Sidney Greenstreet was great, but not fat enough in my mind. Peter Lorre was the hardest to shake.

The movie did not make clear that Spade and Brigid were sleeping together, and as a result I felt that Spade's final monologue in the movie was out of the blue. The book made it all make sense. Was Falcon the first popular novel to have a bedroom scene?

Falcon was originally published in 1929 in a magazine (Black Mask?, I don't remember), before the Crash. I think that it is important to remember that Falcon is a Roaring Twenties story, not a depression era story.

For years I have considered Red Harvest to be a better story than Falcon, but I reread that one last year, and I would have to say now that I like Falcon much more.

I read once years ago that Sam Spade was the first popular protagonist that was nobody's idea of a hero (the "anti-hero"); i.e., he was sleeping with his partner's wife, and then dropped her when he got tired of her.
The reason the movie didn't mention Spade's sleeping with Brigid is because it was filmed post-code. For the same reason, the bathroom strip-search was omitted. There's an earlier film version, 1931 I believe, that is much more explicit. It was critically acclaimed and popular at the box office, but it was banned after the code came in. While I liked the Bogart movie, I felt that he and Astor had zero chemistry, and yes, her declaration of love and his response made little sense in that context.

I really enjoyed the book, and I wish Hammett had written more Sam Spade adventures. He was an interesting character.

GA Russell 06-23-2011 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe (Post 1624676)
The reason the movie didn't mention Spade's sleeping with Brigid is because it was filmed post-code. For the same reason, the bathroom strip-search was omitted. There's an earlier film version, 1931 I believe, that is much more explicit. It was critically acclaimed and popular at the box office, but it was banned after the code came in. While I liked the Bogart movie, I felt that he and Astor had zero chemistry, and yes, her declaration of love and his response made little sense in that context.

I really enjoyed the book, and I wish Hammett had written more Sam Spade adventures. He was an interesting character.
Tom, I've always wanted to see that first movie. All references to it that I've seen have been dismissive. I had no idea that it disappeared from sight because of the code.

Did you know that Hammett wrote four Sam Spade short stories? They are collected together with other Hammett works in a book entitled The Adventures of Sam Spade.

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Russell (Post 1624679)
Tom, I've always wanted to see that first movie. All references to it that I've seen have been dismissive. I had no idea that it disappeared from sight because of the code.
I also want to see it. The dismissive reviews I've seen refer not to it, but to Satan Met a Lady (1936), which was a comedic adaptation of the book. The 1931 film is still available, but I can't find it on line for free or for rent, and I haven't had much luck with ordering DVDs through the mail. A couple of times I did order DVDs and never got the goods. I think there must be some movie buffs working at the Post Office. :eek:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Russell (Post 1624679)
Did you know that Hammett wrote four Sam Spade short stories? They are collected together with other Hammett works in a book entitled The Adventures of Sam Spade.
No I didn't, although I knew others had written Sam Spade stories. Thanks for that. I'll have to check it out.

GA Russell 06-23-2011 03:23 AM
My records show that there are four Sam Spade stories in toto: The Maltese Falcon, Too Many Have Lived, They Can Only Hang You Once and A Man Called Spade.

Mike L 06-23-2011 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Russell (Post 1624679)
Did you know that Hammett wrote four Sam Spade short stories? They are collected together with other Hammett works in a book entitled The Adventures of Sam Spade.
There was also a long-running radio serial (in the US) along the same lines. It was extremely popular for a while, until Hammett was replaced as the writer (possibly because of his political activities and subsequent imprisonment and investigation by HUAC - I'm not sure about any of that; I think I read it somewhere).

arkietech 06-23-2011 09:23 AM
The movie nailed all the characters except Spade. Didn’t the book describe him as a tall blonde? Anyway the book is about Sam Spade and the movie is about Bogie. I like both but would vote for the book.

The character best done in both is San Francisco.

voodooblues 06-23-2011 11:30 AM
I enjoyed the book. I find reading books that take you back to a different time very interesting. The author was very descriptive. I found myself visualizing the first time Sam rolled his first cigarette. He actually brings you back to that time.

Nyssa 06-23-2011 12:03 PM
My GoodRead review: "Great mystery and suspense, with some frustratingly drawn out areas. The resolution seemed a bit anticlimactic, but I did find the actual ending to be very interesting. I wonder if it was purposely left open for the possibility of a sequel that, unfortunately, was never to come.
All in all, it was a good read."

I found that the first 12 chapters went along at a good pace, building, and twisting just enough - but then...blah! Things began to get slow, and plodding until around chapter 17 or 18, when it picked up again. I was most, excited (for lack of a better word) while reading chapter 20, wondering what was going to happen with the two of them (Bridget & Sam) but it seemed to fall flat; I was expecting a little more oomph, in the resolution.

I am happy to hear that there were other Sam Spade stories, though, and I will look them up.

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 1625034)
There was also a long-running radio serial (in the US) along the same lines. It was extremely popular for a while, until Hammett was replaced as the writer (possibly because of his political activities and subsequent imprisonment and investigation by HUAC - I'm not sure about any of that; I think I read it somewhere).
I knew there was a Sam Spade radio show, but I never knew that Hammett was an early writer of that show. I'll have to check that out. I do know that episodes of that show are out there, but I don't know if the ones penned by Hammett are.

GA Russell 06-23-2011 01:02 PM
I don't think that Hammett wrote for the radio show, or any of the movies based upon his books either. As I recall, he once said the only thing he had to do with the radio show was collect the checks as they arrived in the mailbox.

But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong!

Mike L 06-23-2011 01:24 PM
Regarding the radio show, I'm going from memory of something I read a few years ago. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

It's possible that he never wrote for the radio, but he was credited with creating the character of Sam Spade. Maybe what I remember is that the credit was removed as a result of his activism - rather than him being fired as the writer.

I also remember reading that he was very sick in the last few years of his life (he was a heavy smoker and drinker), to the extent that he didn't have the strength to write a single word of anything.

John F 06-23-2011 01:32 PM
I enjoyed it. Very interesting characters.

Hamlet53 06-23-2011 01:38 PM
I had seen the Humphrey Bogart film several times, and so was concerned about that impacting enjoyment of the book. Fortunately once I started reading it I realized that, apart from knowing that “The McGuffin” was a small statue of a bird (In an interview I once saw with Alfred Hitchcock he used the term “McGuffin” for the thing that everyone in one of his films was after; it really made no difference to the story just what the “McGuffin” was), I had no memory of the plot.

So anyway I thought it was alright. The writing wasn't that great and I thought the various characters were over drawn to the point of being caricatures. But maybe that is part of the 'hard boiled detective' genre that this novel is the archetype of. I was surprised several times, including the ending where it was revealed that it was Miss Wanderly murdered Miles Archer. So it was entertaining, but it did not make me want to read any more Hammett. I was pleased that it was so short.

Greg Anos 06-23-2011 01:50 PM
I hae and have watched the 1931 movie version. I was not overly impressed. The characters were not true to the book. Imagine Sam Spade leering (and I do mean leering) at every girl that walks by...

To understand the Wilmer character, look up the yiddish term gonsel (slipped into the 41 movie as gunsel).

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward (Post 1625690)
I hae and have watched the 1931 movie version. I was not overly impressed. The characters were not true to the book. Imagine Sam Spade leering (and I do mean leering) at every girl that walks by...

To understand the Wilmer character, look up the yiddish term gonsel (slipped into the 41 movie as gunsel).
Was there nudity in that version? Does it make clear O'Shaughnessy and Spade were sleeping together? I know the strip search scene was suppose to be in that one, but I don't know how much was actually shown onscreen. "Lewdness" is what earned the movie its ban after the code came in.

Greg Anos 06-23-2011 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe (Post 1625737)
Was there nudity in that version? Does it make clear O'Shaughnessy and Spade were sleeping together? I know the strip search scene was suppose to be in that one, but I don't know how much was actually shown onscreen. "Lewdness" is what earned the movie its ban after the code came in.
I only watched it once, I'll have to rewatch it tonight. Certainly no nude scenes stuck out in my memory.

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 03:18 PM
In the '41 film, a question is raised as to whether O'Shaughnessy has pocketed some of the money that Gutman paid him. Spade looks at her once, then looks back and says with confidence that Gutman palmed it. The scene as well as Spade's certainty makes little sense without the complete search of Ms. O'Shaughnessy's person that occurred in the book.

Mike L 06-23-2011 03:24 PM
Getting back to the book (as opposed to films and radio series) .....

One thing I always found hard to swallow was the need for a "fall guy""

Quote:
"The police have got to have somebody they can stick for those three murders ... The way to handle them is to toss them a victim, somebody they can hang the works on."
This is a central part of Spade's strategy. If he and Gutman can between them decide on a "victim", the police will accept it, and take the pressure off the others. It has to be part of the deal for handing over the falcon.

So, here we have Gutman - a notorious villain - and Spade - who is still himself a suspect in at least one of the murders, and we're asked to believe that the police (and subsequently a jury) will accept their word for who the real murderer is.

Doesn't sound very likely, does it?

Mike L 06-23-2011 03:32 PM
Talking of the "fall guy" scene, I'd like to nominate as the best line in the book Gutman's speech when he agrees that it should be Wilmer:

Quote:
"Well, Wilmer, I'm sorry to lose you, and I want you to know that I couldn't be fonder of you if you were my own son; but - well, by Gad - if you lose a son, it's possible to get another - and there's only one Maltese falcon"

GA Russell 06-23-2011 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward (Post 1625690)
To understand the Wilmer character, look up the yiddish term gonsel (slipped into the 41 movie as gunsel).
Ralph, the word gunsel is used in the book.

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 1625919)
Getting back to the book (as opposed to films and radio series) .....

One thing I always found hard to swallow was the need for a "fall guy""



This is a central part of Spade's strategy. If he and Gutman can between them decide on a "victim", the police will accept it, and take the pressure off the others. It has to be part of the deal for handing over the falcon.

So, here we have Gutman - a notorious villain - and Spade - who is still himself a suspect in at least one of the murders, and we're asked to believe that the police (and subsequently a jury) will accept their word for who the real murderer is.

Doesn't sound very likely, does it?
Actually, it does. The "fall guy" scenario assumes less than honorable motives on the part of the police. I don't know how valid that assumption was concerning 1920s San Francisco, but I know that even today in many places many cases are miraculously cleared from the books when a suitable suspect arrives on the doorstep of the police department. It makes the records look good.

sun surfer 06-23-2011 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 1625919)
Getting back to the book (as opposed to films and radio series) .....

One thing I always found hard to swallow was the need for a "fall guy""



This is a central part of Spade's strategy. If he and Gutman can between them decide on a "victim", the police will accept it, and take the pressure off the others. It has to be part of the deal for handing over the falcon.

So, here we have Gutman - a notorious villain - and Spade - who is still himself a suspect in at least one of the murders, and we're asked to believe that the police (and subsequently a jury) will accept their word for who the real murderer is.

Doesn't sound very likely, does it?
I was fine with that part of it since the book wasn't overly realistic to begin with. And that brings me to one of my favourite aspects of the book - the ambiguity of if Spade would follow through with that or not. It seems as he's plotting it (with my 21st century sensibility knowing how these things work out in most recent stories/tv shows/movies of this type) that it's only to get them to confess. It well could have been, but I love that the author leaves it deliberately vague - if things had gone differently perhaps Sam may well have colluded with Gutman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 1625941)
Talking of the "fall guy" scene, I'd like to nominate as the best line in the book Gutman's speech when he agrees that it should be Wilmer:

"Well, Wilmer, I'm sorry to lose you, and I want you to know that I couldn't be fonder of you if you were my own son; but - well, by Gad - if you lose a son, it's possible to get another - and there's only one Maltese falcon"
:rofl: I loved that line too.

Greg Anos 06-23-2011 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Russell (Post 1625949)
Ralph, the word gunsel is used in the book.
my bad, both cases gunsel was used to get past the censors...

bookwormat 06-23-2011 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe (Post 1625955)
Actually, it does. The "fall guy" scenario assumes less than honorable motives on the part of the police.
Maybe. But giving the police, which knows nothing about the falcon and suspect Spade, a pissed boy who knows the whole story and is willing to talk - That does not seem like a clever idea to me.

GA Russell 06-23-2011 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 1625616)
Maybe what I remember is that the credit was removed as a result of his activism - rather than him being fired as the writer.
Mike, that sounds plausible. I can tell you that the actor who played Spade, Howard Duff, was replaced because of his politics.

By the way, I once visited Dashiell Hammett's grave at Arlington.

Nyssa 06-23-2011 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookwormat (Post 1626094)
Maybe. But giving the police, which knows nothing about the falcon and suspect Spade, a pissed boy who knows the whole story and is willing to talk - That does not seem like a clever idea to me.
I don't think Sam expected Wilmer to speak. I think he expected Wilmer to say or do something that would make himself look even more guilty, which is what happened at the end when he killed Gutman.

(Are we expected to hide big spoilers? I don't remember the rules).

WT Sharpe 06-23-2011 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyssa (Post 1626119)
I don't think Sam expected Wilmer to speak. I think he expected Wilmer to say or do something that would make himself look even more guilty,
Spoiler:
which is what happened at the end when he killed Gutman.
Which could hardly have come as a surprise to Spade, since, knowing Wilmer's rash and volatile nature, he set about to drive a wedge between Wilmer and Gutman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyssa (Post 1626119)
(Are we expected to hide big spoilers? I don't remember the rules).
I don't think so; not in the discussion thread. In the nominations thread, yes.

JSWolf 06-23-2011 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob (Post 1624645)
Time to discuss the Maltese Falcon....

BOb
What happened to the poll?

JSWolf 06-23-2011 05:16 PM
I liked the book. And the good guy (Spade) was not all that good. The police were made out to be bumbling fools. Spade is out for only one person and that's himself. I don't think he cares what happens to anyone else as long as he comes out alright.

The biggest downfall of the book was when Spade didn't really question the girl about her original cover story and just let it slide.

Nyssa 06-23-2011 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe (Post 1626133)
Which could hardly have come as a surprise to Spade, since, knowing Wilmer's rash and volatile nature, he set about to drive a wedge between Wilmer and Gutman.
Exactly. Spade set it up and got exactly what he wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WT Sharpe (Post 1626133)
I don't think so; not in the discussion thread. In the nominations thread, yes.
Thank you. I'll go back and remove the spoiler tags.

--------

You know what I don't get? How Bridget expected to walk away scot-free! I mean really? You killed the man's partner, lied at every turn, put him in all sorts of unnecessary danger...and a little bit of nookie was supposed to save you?

pilotbob 06-23-2011 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf (Post 1626137)
What happened to the poll?
What poll? we don't put polls on discussions threads.

BOb

orlok 06-23-2011 06:55 PM
I found the book quite hard to get into, as I found the characterisations too overt (detailed descriptions of how the characters look; unsubtle descriptions of facial expressions and so on). I also struggled because the Bogart version is so engrained I just couldn't see Spade as tall and blonde. I did think Peter Lorre was perfect casting, and this helped me get int othe book once he appeared on the scene.

I also found Spade eminently unlikeable, and wouldn't have cared much if he'd been killed or convicted at the end.

Overall, I did quite enjoy it, but it hasn't earned re-read status. 3 out of 5.

lila55 06-25-2011 03:23 AM
I found it entertaining, but after reading "The long Goodbye" by Raymond Chandler a couple of months ago and now this book I have to admit that "hardboiled" is definitely not my cup of tea.

JSWolf 06-25-2011 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob (Post 1626205)
What poll? we don't put polls on discussions threads.

BOb
But we could. Didn't you read the suggestion for the poll and other agreeing that it's a good idea?

pilotbob 06-25-2011 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf (Post 1629391)
But we could. Didn't you read the suggestion for the poll and other agreeing that it's a good idea?
No, I must have missed that. I would be happy to add a poll to the discussion threads.

BOb

GA Russell 06-27-2011 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyssa (Post 1626176)
You know what I don't get? How Bridget expected to walk away scot-free! I mean really? You killed the man's partner, lied at every turn, put him in all sorts of unnecessary danger...and a little bit of nookie was supposed to save you?
Great point Nyssa! I think it shows the extent to which Brigid was accustomed to having her way with men.

JSWolf 06-27-2011 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob (Post 1629934)
No, I must have missed that. I would be happy to add a poll to the discussion threads.

BOb
I'm on a Star trek forum where the review/discussion thread on the latest book has a poll to get a feel how most people liked the book.

Outstanding
Above Average
Average
Below Average
Poor

Those are the poll choices. But feel free to change the wording to what you think best. I just think its a good idea to have the poll as well as the discussion.


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