Scene breaks at page top/bottom

radius · 12-08-2009, 02:48 PM

Hi all,

I was wondering how publishers handle scene breaks at the very top or bottom of pages, and how this could be duplicated for epubs.

The issue is that often scene breaks (e.g. the narractive changes location, viewpoint, time etc) are indicated by blank space between paragraphs. However, if this space appears at the very bottom or very top of a page, the reader might not notice right away that the scene has changed. Yet I've never noticed having this trouble in paper printed books, so I assume there is some kind of well-known typographical method for avoiding the problem.

I'm sure I have seen this brought up before on MobileRead but I haven't been able to find the discussion.

Thanks!

Jellby · 12-09-2009, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radius

I was wondering how publishers handle scene breaks at the very top or bottom of pages, and how this could be duplicated for epubs.

I've seen cases where a line or a group of asterisks is used only when the break occurs at a page boundary, otherwise just blank space is used.

HarryT · 12-09-2009, 01:20 PM

The printed version of "The Lord of the Rings", for example, uses a blank line for a "normal" scene change, but a "*" where it occurs at the foot of a page.

radius · 12-09-2009, 01:48 PM

Hmmm... I'm convinced there must be something I can do with visibility:hidden in order to get this effect, but I can't think of it. Do you guys have a working snippet?

HarryT · 12-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Personally, I just use "* * *" (centred) for all scene changes. That's a perfectly common convention in printed books.

Elfwreck · 12-09-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Personally, I just use "* * *" (centred) for all scene changes. That's a perfectly common convention in printed books.

I like that method because it works with different reading methods. Even with my own PDFs designed for a 6" screen, I sometimes use reflow when my eyes are tired or I'm reading in dim light.

Valloric · 12-09-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Personally, I just use "* * *" (centred) for all scene changes. That's a perfectly common convention in printed books.

Yeah, I use these too.

yekim54 · 12-09-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Personally, I just use "* * *" (centred) for all scene changes. That's a perfectly common convention in printed books.

Yep, same here.

Jellby · 12-10-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radius

Hmmm... I'm convinced there must be something I can do with visibility:hidden in order to get this effect, but I can't think of it. Do you guys have a working snippet?

Unfortunately, I don't think the "visibility" property is supported by ePUB (yet). Besides, I believe telling whether an element is at the bottom or top of a page is outside CSS 2.1 too...

radius · 12-10-2009, 10:19 AM

It appears we have a consensus.

I prefer just the extra space to indicate scene break as I think it looks more attractive. But after running into two cases where I was momentarily confused when the break happened at a page break, I guess I will start using the asterisks as well. Too bad.

Solitaire1 · 12-13-2009, 04:59 AM

This might provide you with help concerning this issue. I format my ebooks using my word processor and then use it to generate a PDF for my ereader.

To ensure that the scene heading marker (such as "***" or "- - -") doesn't get end up at the bottom of a page, I make a paragraph style called "Interruption" and apply it to the markers. I then set the style to ensure that anything marked as with the Interruption style will not be separated from the next paragraph. If the marker falls at the bottom of a page, it will automatically be bumped to the next page so it stays with the next paragraph.

I hope that helps.

Jellby · 12-13-2009, 05:15 AM

In ePUB, you'd do that by applying the CSS style "page-break-after: avoid".

HarryT · 12-13-2009, 05:24 AM

Is there anything wrong with having "* * *" at the bottom of a page? I see it there pretty often in printed books!

Jack Tingle · 12-13-2009, 08:46 AM

You can even get cute and use something like:

-=oOo=-

or some other attractive string. I've seen this done if the author was feeling energetic.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

JSWolf · 12-13-2009, 09:28 AM

For eBooks, I like two blank lines and then a non-indented paragraph to start off the new section. If because the line spaces are at the bottom of the page, it's easy to tell when the page is turned and the next paragraph is not indented.

12-08-2009, 02:48 PM	#1
radius Lector minore Posts: 660 Karma: 1738720 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Aura One, Paperwhite Signature	Scene breaks at page top/bottom Hi all, I was wondering how publishers handle scene breaks at the very top or bottom of pages, and how this could be duplicated for epubs. The issue is that often scene breaks (e.g. the narractive changes location, viewpoint, time etc) are indicated by blank space between paragraphs. However, if this space appears at the very bottom or very top of a page, the reader might not notice right away that the scene has changed. Yet I've never noticed having this trouble in paper printed books, so I assume there is some kind of well-known typographical method for avoiding the problem. I'm sure I have seen this brought up before on MobileRead but I haven't been able to find the discussion. Thanks!

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12-09-2009, 01:20 PM	#3
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	The printed version of "The Lord of the Rings", for example, uses a blank line for a "normal" scene change, but a "*" where it occurs at the foot of a page.

12-09-2009, 01:48 PM	#4
radius Lector minore Posts: 660 Karma: 1738720 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Aura One, Paperwhite Signature	Hmmm... I'm convinced there must be something I can do with visibility:hidden in order to get this effect, but I can't think of it. Do you guys have a working snippet?

12-09-2009, 01:52 PM	#5
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Personally, I just use "* * *" (centred) for all scene changes. That's a perfectly common convention in printed books.

12-10-2009, 10:19 AM	#10
radius Lector minore Posts: 660 Karma: 1738720 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Aura One, Paperwhite Signature	It appears we have a consensus. I prefer just the extra space to indicate scene break as I think it looks more attractive. But after running into two cases where I was momentarily confused when the break happened at a page break, I guess I will start using the asterisks as well. Too bad.

12-13-2009, 04:59 AM	#11
Solitaire1 Samurai Lizard Posts: 14,791 Karma: 69500000 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: NookColor, Nook Glowlight 4	This might provide you with help concerning this issue. I format my ebooks using my word processor and then use it to generate a PDF for my ereader. To ensure that the scene heading marker (such as "***" or "- - -") doesn't get end up at the bottom of a page, I make a paragraph style called "Interruption" and apply it to the markers. I then set the style to ensure that anything marked as with the Interruption style will not be separated from the next paragraph. If the marker falls at the bottom of a page, it will automatically be bumped to the next page so it stays with the next paragraph. I hope that helps.

12-13-2009, 05:15 AM	#12
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,543 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	In ePUB, you'd do that by applying the CSS style "page-break-after: avoid".

12-13-2009, 05:24 AM	#13
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Is there anything wrong with having "* * *" at the bottom of a page? I see it there pretty often in printed books!

12-13-2009, 08:46 AM	#14
Jack Tingle Punctuation Fetishist Posts: 557 Karma: 1070000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Bluest Commonwealth In East America Device: Kindle PW, Nexus 7 (2013), Galaxy S5 phone, Galaxy Tab 4 8.0	You can even get cute and use something like: -=oOo=- or some other attractive string. I've seen this done if the author was feeling energetic. Regards, Jack Tingle

12-13-2009, 09:28 AM	#15
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 78,986 Karma: 144284074 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	For eBooks, I like two blank lines and then a non-indented paragraph to start off the new section. If because the line spaces are at the bottom of the page, it's easy to tell when the page is turned and the next paragraph is not indented.

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