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Old 08-30-2010, 10:29 AM   #16
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Wow, I had a long response for this thread...lets just say I could chat for hours on the degradation of the education system in the US as well as the actual value of that education in the US to the individual.

Today, even with a larger population, work longer for less than people did with lower populations and more than needed done every day. I forget who's theory it was but if you use population as a basis the higher the population the less each person needs to do in order to contribute to a well functioning society. Leaving more time to enjoy the very small time we have left on the planet.

But, sadly this is never going to come about...the globe needs that ELE to happen sooner rather than later...the worlds population is beyond recovery so it's best over sooner rather than later so whatever is next can take it's turn at running things.
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:34 AM   #17
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A couple of days ago I read an article in a UK newspaper that said that in the UK 25 % of lap dancers have degrees.
Don't you find it rather depressing that this implies that 75% do not? Lap dancing is all well and good (and pays well), but it's only a short-term career at best, and it's important to have a good education when you move on to do something else.
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:43 AM   #18
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It's not that I regret it. I did enjoy being in school. I enjoyed learning and I still do. However what I learned has very little to do with what I now do for a living and the pieces of paper I have mean exactly nothing to the clients I work for who only care if my writing is good and if I can get the job done on time. The irony of it all is that when I was 8 years old I knew I wanted to be a writer. It took going through 10 years of school and 19 different jobs before I got back to what I wanted to do when I was 8 and almost none of those 10 years of school or 19 jobs was particularly relevant since I was already getting praised for my writing when I was in high school. Actually, I still remember when I was in my first year of college I turned in a paper in my film class which my professor marked with a C+ and the following comment: "you deserve an F. You didn't write a single thing about what I asked you to write about. However, what you did write was so well written, I just couldn't flunk you." Anyway, bottom line, my higher education might have been enjoyable and might have given me lots of general knowledge, but it wasn't necessary for what I do for a living right now.
What a wonderful take on everything wrong with what is called education in the US. What is wanted are automatons who have no critical thinking ability and cannot thing then function in the abstract.

Even when was first off to college I was expected to go in a certain direction and everyone who "knew" backed it up...ultimately they never were close to right. People need the freedom to follow their inherent likes when it comes to education and career...not everyone needs a college degree nor does everyone want a college degree, some people are content to dig ditches some to build space stations...our system simply does not teach the freedom of thought to trust our own instincts.

I have three university degrees, two advanced and could have gotten a 4th if I had the time and desire all in the span of 7yrs of college which included working the entire time...thing is, I only enjoyed ONE of the discipline and today am not even using that because of health related limitations. If you can't think to your best it's hard to work in the field you love.

But in all the time I spent in college/university I never was taught the value of a true liberal arts education. It ALL comes from there...science without philosophy is where the true dangers lie...of course life w/o philosophy is a life that typically is a life filled with regrets and failed promise which leads to the need to sit in judgement of others if only to make ones life seem of value after all.
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:45 AM   #19
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Doesn't Rabbinical school give you practical experience in debate that you wouldn't get from just reading a book? I'd think that developing legal reasoning in depth and then having to defend that reasoning on the fly would be an especially valuable learning experience. I know that in traditional Islamic education you have to go through a similar process once you grasp the fundamentals (i.e. Grammar, Vocabulary, Basic Religious Law, etc.). Students are regularly assigned propositions to attack and defend and taught the application of formal logical and rhetorical principles. My understanding that a traditional Yeshiva education operates using similar methods. At any rate, I think a liberal arts education is invaluable in learning how to think and in forcing one to tackle the Big Issues and Great Questions. I don't regret the years I spent studying philosophy (although I wish I had also tried to do a double major or at least a minor in Middle Eastern studies while I was at it). As it is, it is difficult enough to avoid being infected by the rampant materialism and consumerism that has got its grips in the American soul. A liberal arts education gives you a fighting chance to free yourself from that grip. I don't see how an educational experience which is from start to finish entirely focused on obtaining a marketable skill or set of skills without consideration (and often with no time available) for the meaning of what one is doing will allow one to develop in the type of person qualified to exercise the power that a free and democratic society confers upon the individual. This is not to say that there are not thoughtful engineers and doctors, but this is something they come to 'on the side.' Frankly, I think if there were more engineers who deeply studied and pondered over ethics, there would be a dearth of those individuals willing to devote themselves to the art of developing better ways to kill humans. If there was a concerted movement among scientists to study social theory, perhaps we would not be awash technological and pharmaceutical products which serve very little purpose other than to enrich patent holders while actually contributing to the degradation of the quality of life and of the fabric of our society.

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Old 08-30-2010, 01:22 PM   #20
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I recently read Jaron Lenier's "You are Not a Gadget." There several points where I strongly agree with him and many points where I vehemently disagree (Songles? Sheesh...). One of the points of agreement is that there are some avenues of research that ought not to be pursued for ethical reasons. The example he gives is of a recent resource intensive two year project to discover how to use a cell phone to hack a pacemaker and kill someone by remote. This project did highlight some glaring vulnerability: it created vulnerability by signalling that such a goal was obtainable. He points out that, in fact, obscurity can be good security, using the human immune system as an example. I think some of the security of Linux comes from the obscurity of any given distribution (who's gonna make a virus for Puppy Linux?). At any rate, there are so many problems that need solving and questions that need to be addressed that I think the problem of, for example, creating a form of napalm that is an even more efficient killer/disfigurer can safely be left unaddressed without worrying about stifling human creativity or curiosity.

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Old 08-30-2010, 01:25 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by eric11210 View Post
It's not that I regret it. I did enjoy being in school. I enjoyed learning and I still do. However what I learned has very little to do with what I now do for a living and the pieces of paper I have mean exactly nothing to the clients I work for who only care if my writing is good and if I can get the job done on time. The irony of it all is that when I was 8 years old I knew I wanted to be a writer. It took going through 10 years of school and 19 different jobs before I got back to what I wanted to do when I was 8 and almost none of those 10 years of school or 19 jobs was particularly relevant since I was already getting praised for my writing when I was in high school.
Not relevant? I would think that those years would provide you with experiences to draw upon for your writing. Be it fiction or non-fiction, having those experiences should, at the very least, make it easier to connect with your audience when writing.

I have degrees in Psychology and Economics, but I'm currently working as an Accountant. Not exactly related to my studies, but my education taught me how to think, how to research, how to write, how to interact with people... and that psychology degree actually serves me well in all facets of life by giving me insight to how people think.
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Old 08-30-2010, 01:29 PM   #22
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A couple of days ago I read an article in a UK newspaper that said that in the UK 25 % of lap dancers have degrees.
Don't you find it rather depressing that this implies that 75% do not? Lap dancing is all well and good (and pays well), but it's only a short-term career at best, and it's important to have a good education when you move on to do something else.
Perhaps those 75% are saving for their degree.
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Old 08-30-2010, 04:46 PM   #23
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Actually, it's not dumb. You should read up on Knowledge Workers. There is so much information in today's business world, that it's not about WHAT you know, it's about whether or not you can figure it out and know how to find answers. Of course, this is not an absolute for all fields of work.
I agree with the bold part. But nothing of this was taught at my University. They said we want this, go and do it, and here is the marking criteria.

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Yes, there are always exceptions. Especially when it's something you heard from a friend of a friend about a friend.
The CS degree one, I actually met, and I can verify did not know how to fix a PC. No idea why or how they're doing CS. The other was from someone I trust.

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Well yeah, that's always been true. That's why networking is so important, and why many Master's programs (at least in the States) concentrate on networking functions.

Don't we all know someone who did that? You sound very bitter.
If networking is so important, what's the point of University?
I sound bitter....lol Would you be nice and happy, if you just finished 3 year degree, and came into a job market so overloaded with people who need a job that you cannot find one.

University didn't teach me anything. Everything, I learned was self-taught. All University has been good for me is having a piece of paper which says "He did this degree" to an employer.
University doesn't prepare you for the job market at all.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:39 PM   #24
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Computer Science is not about how to fix computers its a huge and diverse field.

For example CS students study how computers work at the fundamental operating system and circuitry level. They study algorithms and how to create and use them to solve problems such as: efficiently searching through data, creating 'intelligent' behaviour for games, computer graphics (algorithms not MS paint) and creation of software from problem analysis to development and testing.

I even used Darwins theory of evolution(AKA genetic algorithms) to solve Sudoku

So don't think badly of your friend because he doesnt know how to fix a computer you can learn to do that without a degree as theres not much to learn. Theres so much that can go wrong on the software side that I.T technicians generally use formatting and disk imaging to fix the issue without understanding the problem. Any enthusiast can learn to fix a computer

Sorry about the lecture a lot of people don't understand what CS is and I was feeling sorry for your friend :P

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Old 08-30-2010, 08:26 PM   #25
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Not relevant? I would think that those years would provide you with experiences to draw upon for your writing. Be it fiction or non-fiction, having those experiences should, at the very least, make it easier to connect with your audience when writing.

I have degrees in Psychology and Economics, but I'm currently working as an Accountant. Not exactly related to my studies, but my education taught me how to think, how to research, how to write, how to interact with people... and that psychology degree actually serves me well in all facets of life by giving me insight to how people think.
Don't feel bad. I have a B.S. in Psychology and spent most of my working life in warehousing (and making more money than what I could have made in psychology with only a B.S.).
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:59 PM   #26
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College is not supposed to be trade school. All of the core curriculum classes expose students to a wider world than just a job.
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:05 PM   #27
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College is not supposed to be trade school...
Oh no? Then why is a degree necessary to become counselors, doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc.? Try to get that education from a vocational school.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:56 AM   #28
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College is not supposed to be trade school. All of the core curriculum classes expose students to a wider world than just a job.
It depends what you're studying. If you're studying a subject such as medicine, law, or engineering, then that's exactly what it is.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:00 AM   #29
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(Just a short administrative note...)

I have relocated this thread to The Lounge from General Discussions, as it is generally unrelated to ebooks. I have also added the "Seriously Thoughtful" tag.

(There's an expiring redirect at General Discussions, so anyone going there to find it will be able to, and be redirected here)

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Old 08-31-2010, 10:13 AM   #30
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I agree with the bold part. But nothing of this was taught at my University. They said we want this, go and do it, and here is the marking criteria.
Hm. That's not how my University worked at all.

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The CS degree one, I actually met, and I can verify did not know how to fix a PC. No idea why or how they're doing CS. The other was from someone I trust.
Not really what CS is. At least, that's not what CS was at my University.

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If networking is so important, what's the point of University?
I sound bitter....lol Would you be nice and happy, if you just finished 3 year degree, and came into a job market so overloaded with people who need a job that you cannot find one.
You didn't network while at University? That's what all my junior and senior year classes were. Sounds like you missed out on a good opportunity.

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University didn't teach me anything. Everything, I learned was self-taught. All University has been good for me is having a piece of paper which says "He did this degree" to an employer.
University doesn't prepare you for the job market at all.
Again, depending on your field of study, it's not necessarily going to prepare you to walk right into a job. It DOES teach you the fundamentals, and it does teach you how to learn and how to think/reason. These are very important skills in today's business world. In fact, I'd say these skills are much more important than just rote memorization.

What was it you were expecting to get out of University?

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