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Old 07-05-2010, 06:21 PM   #46
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You make a good point that I'd forgot about. I had an early Canon digital camera and when it came time to replace the battery, I had an impossible time finding a new one.
Same for me with an older panasonic model and yeah, JVC once made digital cameras, too. By the time I needed a replacement, JVC had decided to get out of the still camera business 2 years before I needed one.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:13 PM   #47
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...snip...

nope, but the manufacturers.
Imagine you have something already out of warranty so you d'have to pay shipping in both directions + "repair". Trough a vent openiong you see, the only problem, isa small cable that got loose... trivial, but nevertheless unreachable. if you think its funny - well our sense of humour clearly differs.
I've upgraded the memory in a (supposedly) closed Mac mini. I've replaced the battery in a (supposedly) closed iPod. I've replaced the power supply (due to my screw up, not a bad p/s) and upgraded the internal HDD in a (supposedly) closed iMac. I've upgraded the HDD in a (supposedly) closed iBook. I switched to Apple in 2000 and every Apple product I've ever bought is still used in my household or by nieces/nephews.

As for the closed garden...the Xcode compiler/IDE and iOS SDK are free. You can program your iDevice and/or Mac to do anything you want. You only have to pay for a membership as an Apple developer if you want to list your app on the App Store. I'd say Apple offers the most open, customizable products on the planet.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:16 AM   #48
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I'd say Apple offers the most open, customizable products on the planet.
Evidence of Koolaid overdose. Somebody help the man.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:15 AM   #49
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Evidence of Koolaid overdose. Somebody help the man.
Evidence of someone that is way too wrapped up in people's choice of consumer electronics. Someone get the man something to fiddle and futz with so he can feel in control and smart for using a "power user" device.

(Could it be that there is no Kool Aid and it's okay to like what you like?)

Last edited by malligator; 07-06-2010 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:43 AM   #50
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Evidence of someone that is way too wrapped up in people's choice of consumer electronics. Someone get the man something to fiddle and futz with so he can feel in control and smart for using a "power user" device.

(Could it be that there is no Kool Aid and it's okay to like what you like?)
I thought you were joking. Love them or hate them, but Apple products mentioned in the same sentence with "open and customizable"???
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:09 AM   #51
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I thought you were joking. Love them or hate them, but Apple products mentioned in the same sentence with "open and customizable"???
It's no funnier than the popular belief that people use Macs because of a reduced ability to understand "real" computers or because they are mindlessly lured in by pretty advertising.

Last edited by malligator; 07-06-2010 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:40 AM   #52
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Oh boy, again I think it is time to remind everyone,

I think we would all do well to remember one important thing...

Who can turn the world on with her smile?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each glance and every little movement you show it

Love is all around, no need to waste it
You can have a town, why don't you take it
You're gonna make it after all
You're gonna make it after all

How will you make it on your own?
This world is awfully big, girl this time you're all alone
But it's time you started living
It's time you let someone else do some giving

Love is all around, no need to waste it
You can have a town, why don't you take it
You're gonna make it after all
You're gonna make it after all
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Old 07-08-2010, 06:34 AM   #53
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As for the closed garden...the Xcode compiler/IDE and iOS SDK are free. You can program your iDevice and/or Mac to do anything you want. You only have to pay for a membership as an Apple developer if you want to list your app on the App Store. I'd say Apple offers the most open, customizable products on the planet.
The iOS SDK can be downloaded only onto a Mac; either you own a Mac PC or you can't use it to develop anything. Also, even if you download the SDK to a Mac and develop an iPhone/iPad application, you can't upload and install it on your iPhone/iPad unless you either pay that membership to list it on the App Store, or you jailbreak your iDevice. So no, they're not the most open and customizable products on the planet, because they force you to use a specific additional hardware if you want to customize it and to pay an annual fee only to upload your software onto your device; and also you can't customize the device itself but only develop additional features (the so called Apps).

They aren't completely closed either, but they can't be called the most open. Calling bread with its name.

Changing features inside the OS is no easy task, for example: it can be done, but it isn't tinkering, it's more like hacking. And whacking too sometimes, if you know what I mean
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:58 AM   #54
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The iOS SDK can be downloaded only onto a Mac; either you own a Mac PC or you can't use it to develop anything.
Just like the Windows Mobile SDK only runs on a Windows platform. Really, this is hardly a surprise, given that iOS is a cut-down version of OS/X.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:08 AM   #55
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Just like the Windows Mobile SDK only runs on a Windows platform. Really, this is hardly a surprise, given that iOS is a cut-down version of OS/X.
I'm not saying that that's unique or a bad thing, just that the iOS isn't the most open because there are others more open than that.

For example you can develop apps for the new BlackBerry SDK and for Android using anything: MAC, Windows, Linux... your computer just needs to be able to run any (any, not just a specific one) Java IDE.
And I think that developing apps for Symbian, too, doesn't limit you to one OS.

Edit: And just to clarify, I don't think that Android is the most open either. Despite allowing some more tinkering more easily, it has a few limits too.
E.g: you can freely upload your app to your device, without paying any fee or creating any accoutn on Android Market, but you can develop using ONLY Java or C++ (and only stripped down versions of the two languages), while for example if I want to develop any application for Windows Mobile I can use almost any programming language that I know, and I do not have to stick to one graphical presentation tool only.

Last edited by Lo Zeno; 07-08-2010 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:47 AM   #56
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I'm not saying that that's unique or a bad thing, just that the iOS isn't the most open because there are others more open than that.

For example you can develop apps for the new BlackBerry SDK and for Android using anything: MAC, Windows, Linux... your computer just needs to be able to run any (any, not just a specific one) Java IDE.
And I think that developing apps for Symbian, too, doesn't limit you to one OS.

Edit: And just to clarify, I don't think that Android is the most open either. Despite allowing some more tinkering more easily, it has a few limits too.
E.g: you can freely upload your app to your device, without paying any fee or creating any accoutn on Android Market, but you can develop using ONLY Java or C++ (and only stripped down versions of the two languages), while for example if I want to develop any application for Windows Mobile I can use almost any programming language that I know, and I do not have to stick to one graphical presentation tool only.
I think people misunderstand what the meaning of open systems and closed systems are. Its about how well a system interacts with other systems, or how interchangeable/inoperable a system is with other systems. It's about what kind of control is imposed on the user/developer. it's about standards that are not controlled by one governing body, but open for all to contribute.

I wouldn't consider the Android system closed because you can only develop in C++ or Java. I also think that is an incorrect statement.

Android uses Linux and an Open Java engine. While Google might not officially support other languages from C++ or Java, if you can find a cross compiler, in the language you want to support the Android platform you are targeting you can use that language. Just because Google does not provide this feature doesn't make it closed. And if no cross compiler exist, you can always develop one. The GNU compiler very customizable (only feasible if your a hardware vendor)

The same goes for Java. Even though Java VM only comes canned with Java support there is now support for other languages to compile in Java such as Python.

A closed system would only let you use their proprietary language (lets make up a name and call it Objective C)

Now let's look from the vendor perspective and not just the developer. How many different form factors exist for the Android platform.

There are eInk devices, all sorts of phones, with different hardware and functionality, tables, TV. Now let's look at it's competitors. iPhone OS, there is one tablet, and one phone(with version 1, 2, 3 & 4).

Windows 7 has not seen light of day. But windows CE has many usages, PDA, phones, medical devices, eInk, etc...

Linux all of the above and many more.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:58 AM   #57
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I personally think the best thing about the ipad is that it has caused other manufactures to design new slate devices. There will be a wave of real slates very soon.
As for the KISS statement, I completely disagree. If you own an ipad you have to jailbreak it right off the bat just to make it somewhat usable. You have to jump through hoops to get apps and content on the device. In apples attempt to make the device “user friendly” they made it the exact opposite.
The new slates with Windows 7 will simply own the market within a year. People who currently have ipads will likely flock to a better device, as I’m sure they are more than frustrated by now with the closed nature of the ipad.
Keep your eye on the ExoPC, this may be the one we have been waiting for.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:01 AM   #58
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If you own an ipad you have to jailbreak it right off the bat just to make it somewhat usable.
No you don't.
If you want to say that there are particular things you want to do that you can't do without jailbreaking then say that. To say it is unusable with doing so is just silly.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:12 AM   #59
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As for the KISS statement, I completely disagree. If you own an ipad you have to jailbreak it right off the bat just to make it somewhat usable.
Usable for what? I use my iPad primarily for reading books, as an e-mail client, and a web browser. With the occasional bit of listening to music and watching video thrown in. Why do I need to jailbreak it to make it usable for my needs?
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:06 PM   #60
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Usable for what? I use my iPad primarily for reading books, as an e-mail client, and a web browser. With the occasional bit of listening to music and watching video thrown in. Why do I need to jailbreak it to make it usable for my needs?
Exactly, the average person using an iPad does not need to "jailbreak" it for more advanced functionality. If you want a specialized device that is super-configurable, then iPad would not be the device for you. Ebooks, email, web, music, movies? Yea, then iPad works just fine.
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