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Old 07-03-2010, 05:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
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The thing is, what you call "control" is my idea of user friendliness.
Ironically vice versa its the same:
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Originally Posted by Linus Torvalds
Linux is user friendly, its just very picky about who his friends are.
this is just the point, where not only opinions, but far more crash. I'd call it a kind of user generations conflict: the "earlier ones" were used to: "either you learn how to do it or just go away" - that was the prize of using a computer. Just as getting a driver's license is the prize to pay for driving a car. *sigh* unfortunately it's the point of view of a group of users getting percentually smaller as time passes by...

It's just like with these support wheels on a kid's bike or the backside of a wheelchair - as long as you are not a good driver they are supportive - when you passed a certain level of experience they become a hindering nuissance.

Usually I'd just say, when you're happy with em, keep 'em, but for God's sake gimme a wrench to take them off from my device.
and that's the problem with some of these "new and shiny" devices - you can't take this little pestilent addon-wheels off anymore... This is actually the point driving the experienced users up the barricades - not the fact that "user-friendly-acces" to the device exists, but the fact, that the freedom to choose or DIY is taken away.
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:06 PM   #17
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Ironically vice versa its the same: this is just the point, where not only opinions, but far more crash. I'd call it a kind of user generations conflict: the "earlier ones" were used to: "either you learn how to do it or just go away" - that was the prize of using a computer. Just as getting a driver's license is the prize to pay for driving a car. *sigh* unfortunately it's the point of view of a group of users getting percentually smaller as time passes by...

It's just like with these support wheels on a kid's bike or the backside of a wheelchair - as long as you are not a good driver they are supportive - when you passed a certain level of experience they become a hindering nuissance.

Usually I'd just say, when you're happy with em, keep 'em, but for God's sake gimme a wrench to take them off from my device.
and that's the problem with some of these "new and shiny" devices - you can't take this little pestilent addon-wheels off anymore... This is actually the point driving the experienced users up the barricades - not the fact that "user-friendly-acces" to the device exists, but the fact, that the freedom to choose or DIY is taken away.
Techies often say Apple doesn't originate anything. If that's the case, and it's all Apple hype, it should be easy for rivals to overtake Apple.

As a non-techie, I'd welcome products that are easy to use, but also let techies tinker away. (I'm not wedded to Apple, and I hate iTunes.) Non-techies have money to spend. It's up to techies to deliver alternative products. To just fear, loathe or deride Apple doesn't advance "the cause." Without delivering alternative products, all you (generic you) are doing is demanding that non-techies get technical, or avoid companies like Apple and settle for products that are more difficult to use. That's not going to happen.
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Old 07-03-2010, 09:07 PM   #18
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Old 07-03-2010, 11:32 PM   #19
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demanding that non-techies get technical
this has been given up long ago (unfortunately) instead there are more and more devices with less options made, just to assure that people can use them without really learning anything (or as you call it "without getting technical")

just imagine a world where real cars start to vanish being replaced with ahm things, which:
  • have no gears and brakes but one pedal: you step on it: you drive; you release it; it brakes,
  • just to be sure they make max. 20 km/h

well I admit they would not be as efficient as real cars, but nobody would really need again to learn for a drivers license and get technical with all those boring traffic rules, braking times, etc. pp wouldn't it be just great?

It sounds silly with cars doesn't it? 15-20 years ago it sounded silly with computers... now it' is more and more reality.

Quote:
but also let techies tinker away
unfortunately THIS is shrinking - as you see on Apples example they:
  • don't mind since the nontech usergroup grows bigger and bigger
  • prefer it this way, since they have more control themselves

it isn't only Apple - try to disassemble a mobile phone (let's take motorola or nokia) just to remove 3 f***,bloody crumbles of dirt, which found their way inside somehow and now happily reside on the inner side of the housing just in the mid of the f*** display and you can't get rid of them, because (after retrieving the bloody "service manual" (contains instruction how to disassemble device without completely breaking it-and its not for the common public) you find out that you can't do it without 2 very special screwdrivers and 1 very special case lever tool.

oh brave new world that has such tech-stuff in it...
its the direction of this path in general what gives me a shrug... do you want to live in a world where you need to call for service personnel just to exchange a lightbulb?

Last edited by Freeshadow; 07-03-2010 at 11:35 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 07-04-2010, 12:52 AM   #20
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... do you want to live in a world where you need to call for service personnel just to exchange a lightbulb?
That's not a scenario I'm worried about. If you are, you might want to try to do something about it.
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Old 07-04-2010, 03:39 AM   #21
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this has been given up long ago (unfortunately) instead there are more and more devices with less options made, just to assure that people can use them without really learning anything (or as you call it "without getting technical")

just imagine a world where real cars start to vanish being replaced with ahm things, which:
  • have no gears and brakes but one pedal: you step on it: you drive; you release it; it brakes,
  • just to be sure they make max. 20 km/h

well I admit they would not be as efficient as real cars, but nobody would really need again to learn for a drivers license and get technical with all those boring traffic rules, braking times, etc. pp wouldn't it be just great?
Cars are actually a pretty good analogy. If you bought a car in 1910, you had to be a skilled mechanic, given that they would frequently break down and there were no "rescue services" to help you out. Today, you can buy a car and need know nothing other than how to drive it - you needn't concern yourself about how it works.

Computers are now equally at the "you just need to know how to drive it and not how it works" stage. That's a sign of maturity, and the iPad is a pretty good example of such a computer. It's a good thing because it opens up the world of computers to people who have no interest in knowing how it works - they just want a device that they can switch on and it works.
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Old 07-04-2010, 03:53 AM   #22
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A different perspective on the car analogy. 30 years ago, with a little bit of mechanical knowledge and a standard tool kit you could fix many things in a cars engine yourself. Today you need specialized tools and computer diagnosis software.
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Old 07-04-2010, 04:06 AM   #23
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A different perspective on the car analogy. 30 years ago, with a little bit of mechanical knowledge and a standard tool kit you could fix many things in a cars engine yourself. Today you need specialized tools and computer diagnosis software.
Very true. It's nice, though, that these days we have the choice - the "open the box and switch it on" iPad, or the self-build PC route. Everyone can be happy. I could give my 80-year-old parents and iPad an show them how to buy books wirelessly through the iBooks store. They have no interest whatsoever in learning how to use a PC.
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Old 07-04-2010, 05:52 AM   #24
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I drive past a huge billboard advertising the Dell Streak in Manchester city centre each day on my way to work.
Fair enough; I live 200-odd miles away so obviously wouldn't have seen that - maybe they need to make it even bigger I was thinking of national ads - newspaper, TV, radio etc... and here in London I haven't seen any advertising for the Streak at all - not even simple point of sale posters in Carphone Warehouse and O2 stores.

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I could give my 80-year-old parents and iPad an show them how to buy books wirelessly through the iBooks store.
I did exactly that with my parents (85 & 87) last weekend and they picked it up just fine; my Dad's now trying to decide whether he should buy the WiFi-only or spring for the 3G...

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Old 07-04-2010, 06:10 AM   #25
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Funny. It seems mostly there's either the ipad lover or hater (mostly...).
My ipad fits right in between my laptop and my dedicated sony touch.
And like someone wrote earlier, if something better comes along, I'll give it full consideration. Currently I just love my ipad allthough I'm not a fan of apples we-lock-down-everything policies. But there are ways around that. Maybe the former "technical advanced user" has to advance a little more once the devices warranty has run out.
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:06 AM   #26
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it isn't only Apple - try to disassemble a mobile phone (let's take motorola or nokia) just to remove 3 f***,bloody crumbles of dirt, which found their way inside somehow and now happily reside on the inner side of the housing just in the mid of the f*** display and you can't get rid of them, because (after retrieving the bloody "service manual" (contains instruction how to disassemble device without completely breaking it-and its not for the common public) you find out that you can't do it without 2 very special screwdrivers and 1 very special case lever tool.

oh brave new world that has such tech-stuff in it...
its the direction of this path in general what gives me a shrug... do you want to live in a world where you need to call for service personnel just to exchange a lightbulb?
This is actually very worrying from an economic and environmental standpoint for me. You used to be able to buy kits to build your own TV. Your washers and dryers lasted 20+ years, and if anything in the house broke, there was that "kid" on the block that could fix it on his shop bench in the garage.

Now? If a TV breaks you throw it out and buy a new one. iPods are specifically designed with non removable batteries. Apple is notorious for designing products in such a way as to encourage mandate you upgrade at a minimum every other year.*

What happened to saving money by repairing a perfectly good appliance and keeping it long term? What happens when the heavy metals from all our 1 year old iPods and 2 year old LCD TVs leach out into the ground water?

"If you can't open it, you don't own it."

And because of the success of Apple products with people who don't look at specs but just listen to pretty advertising, other computer companies are following in their footsteps...

* I don't care about your one friend's aunt's son's iPod that lasted 3 years before crapping out. This is what's know as hyperbole, you should be able to spot it on the internet by now.
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:20 AM   #27
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How about my iPod that is still running just fine after 6 years? It an 8 gig model that I use to listen to audiobooks in the car. Heck, I've bought a number of iPods over the years and have only had two die on me (a shuffle and a classic). Both my laptop and my desktop are running just fine both being almost five years old. Hyperbole is fine, but it should have some basis in reality.

I have an iPhone, and iPad and a Droid phone, which has allowed me to do a real life comparison of the Android free for all model to Apple's walled garden model

I would say that the biggest reason that Apple's walled garden model is so successful is three fold. First, users feel that since the apps are vetted, they don't have to worry about malware. Second, developers have an easy method for making money. It's easy to buy an app and people feel like they can trust Apple with their credit card info. Last, since day one of the app store, everything has a profession feel to it. It's easy to find apps in the app store, the apps have a professional look and feel to them and the over all shopping experience is user friendly.

When I go to the android market, I have no real way of knowing if an app has malware attached or anything else. I just have to trust and hope. It's hard to find apps that do a specific task. In general, the apps tend to have an unfinished feel to them. Many of the developers seem to stop at "good enough" rather than worry about giving the apps that final polish. As far as I can tell, few Android developers are making money.

I expect that Android will continue as the underlying OS for many devices. It's free and it's good enough. But I don't expect any of those devices to be things that the "kid" on the block to be able to fix on his shop bench in the garage. Parts are too specialized now and change too fast.
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Old 07-04-2010, 12:18 PM   #28
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This is actually very worrying from an economic and environmental standpoint for me. You used to be able to buy kits to build your own TV. Your washers and dryers lasted 20+ years, and if anything in the house broke, there was that "kid" on the block that could fix it on his shop bench in the garage.

Now? If a TV breaks you throw it out and buy a new one. iPods are specifically designed with non removable batteries. Apple is notorious for designing products in such a way as to encourage mandate you upgrade at a minimum every other year.*

What happened to saving money by repairing a perfectly good appliance and keeping it long term? What happens when the heavy metals from all our 1 year old iPods and 2 year old LCD TVs leach out into the ground water?

"If you can't open it, you don't own it."

And because of the success of Apple products with people who don't look at specs but just listen to pretty advertising, other computer companies are following in their footsteps...

* I don't care about your one friend's aunt's son's iPod that lasted 3 years before crapping out. This is what's know as hyperbole, you should be able to spot it on the internet by now.
You really should care about the facts because your insistence that Apple products must be replaced every other year is most certainly hyperbole.

As for your comment about "pretty advertising" at some point a product has to put up or shut up. All the advertising in the world can't save a bad product. The unparalleled success of Apple products since the return of Jobs should prove it's more than just advertising. It also proves that computers are more than just a laundry list of specs. You can jam the fastest processor, biggest HDD, and most memory inside a case and call it the world's best computer, but in the end, if it sucks to use then it's not worth anything. I'm an electrical engineer (a chip designer, specifically). I am perfectly capable of reading a computer's spec sheet. Insulting my intelligence doesn't change my opinion of what I think is the best computer on the market today.

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Old 07-04-2010, 12:19 PM   #29
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$10 less, in fact. The low-end iPad was $499; the Kindle DX was $489. The DX has now been reduced in price to $379.



It's not Flash games that concern me. What I do miss on my iPad is being able to watch video on the BBC News web site, which is my main source of news. Unfortunately they are all Flash.
Thanks Harry. I couldn't remember if it was $10 or $20 and made a guess.

That's a bummer abut the BBC News. You can't download the BBC News app in the App Store? I just downloaded it and video will play in the app.
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Old 07-04-2010, 12:21 PM   #30
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That's a bummer abut the BBC News. You can't download the BBC News app in the App Store? I just downloaded it and video will play in the app.
I didn't know there was an App . Off to download it now - thanks!

EDIT: What's it called? There doesn't seem to be one called "BBC News" in the UK App Store.

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