Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Readers > Sony Reader

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-10-2006, 02:40 PM   #16
Cthulhu
Technologist
Cthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura about
 
Cthulhu's Avatar
 
Posts: 485
Karma: 4479
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I'm between Cities
Device: SONY Reader PRS-500
@ Bob the ninja: I think you're correct regarding people underestimating the life of Li-Ion batts, but you may be incorrect regarding development:
http://wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/battery.html

this Wired post says that Li-Ion is at the end of its innovation days; they're still great compared to AA's, but not much more advancement of tech will be had.
Would love to see someone at MAKE magazine or some other 'modder' try to hack the battery compartment and throw in some replaceable. Me, I hate the things, and like the rechargeable brick, but that's me.

The best indicator of longevity and durability will be the display models, like Nightwing said. If the Reader takes off, and the display models are still performing well a year from now, that's a good sign.
Heck--if they're still selling these a year from now, that's a good sign!
Cthulhu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 02:42 PM   #17
Leaping Gnome
Evangelist
Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.Leaping Gnome once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.
 
Posts: 490
Karma: 1641
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Louisville
Device: Sony Reader PRS-500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_ninja
Ken,
$10/month is Ok compared to what? pBooks cost $0/month as medium (paper) is included in the pBook price. pBook doesn't need a warranty, charging, etc.
Really? Divide your mortgage/rent by square footage of your house and then multiply by the square footage your books take up. Add in the cost of your bookshelves divided by... say 120 (12 months a year for 10 years, assuming you replace your shelves every 10 years). Now add in your time dusting/cleaning/sorting those books and bookshelves. Not to mention when you move packing, lugging, unpacking. If you're the environmental type, think how many trees went into making those books so they could sit on your shelves for decades.

Still think that paper books have no cost beyond the purchase price?

Quote:
Once can load many books into a reader compared to much bigger pBooks. However, if it should fail and be thrown away after only 3 years then the advantage is lost.
Do people have to re-buy music every time they replace their iPod? Myself having owned 7 iPods I can answer "no". Why would text be any different?

Cost is certainly a detriment to ebook adoption, but it is not as simple as "paper books have no extra cost". Like many others, I think as economies of scale keep kicking in, the ebook market will get cheaper and better. Like most emerging markets, it's the early-adopters that agree to bear the burden.

Last edited by Leaping Gnome; 11-10-2006 at 02:45 PM.
Leaping Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Advertisement
Old 11-10-2006, 02:55 PM   #18
Cthulhu
Technologist
Cthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura about
 
Cthulhu's Avatar
 
Posts: 485
Karma: 4479
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I'm between Cities
Device: SONY Reader PRS-500
Leaping Gnome:

You have some very good points regarding "true cost" of books. I am blown away that you've owned 7 iPods. That seems like quite a chunk of change. I think that the initial cost of adoption, i.e. the $385 for this new fangled device (let us not forget tax) is tough for some people to reconsile.
However, regarding "early adoption," I remember when everyone had to change from LP's to casettes, then we all switched to CD Players & CD's. CD's intially cost close to $20-$25.00 (1980's $$), yet for the qulaity, clarity, and other features, like not having to rewind or keep our tunes away from EMF's, we plopped down money. Again, I quote Tommy Lee Jones "I'll have to buy the White Album all over again."
Maybe if some of the older posters here recall that time of reformatting our music--especially since we mention iPods every two or five posts--it will add perspective to the development of this technology. (btw, not being a snotty young kid; I'm 32).

Also remember that for a long time, we switched formats, from Casette to CD, with no way to store or record in the new format; we had to still make mix tapes from CD's.
Cthulhu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 03:54 PM   #19
BobVA
Addict
BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.BobVA once ate a cherry pie in a record 7 seconds.
 
Posts: 221
Karma: 1500
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: PRS950, T1, T2, iPad, Nook
I'm not too worried about the battery issue. I'll be surprised if it's not available from Sony (who are relatively good about parts - just got a new keyboard for my 4 yr old laptop), but if not, there's a huge aftermarket for all the other compact Li-Poly gadgets like PDA's, MP3 players, etc.

Even if you don't want to open up the package, the fact you can power it via an external plug opens up an entire potenital world of aftermarket power gadgets.

[Geek aside: I've noticed that the Reader won't charge via the USB port with a USB "power supply" - it wants to be connected to a computer. I'm guessing that's why the charger didn't just have a USB connector...]

A lot of gadgets have some serious issues that almost demand replacement for the first generation. I'm not seeing anything I can't live with in the Reader that couldn't be fixed in software, so I expect to be using mine for quite a while. Unless there's a huge improvement in the eInk screen (e.g. greater contrast), or they figure out a way to fold it up, I'd probably view most hardware improvements as a different compromise (e.g. backlighting...battery life, screen size...portability).

But hey, I'm using a four year old computer :-)

Cheers,
Bob

Last edited by BobVA; 11-10-2006 at 04:14 PM.
BobVA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 05:02 PM   #20
Bob Russell
Recovering Gadget Addict
Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bob Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Bob Russell's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,336
Karma: 590871
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Device: Note3, MBA, DVP11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobVA
Even if you don't want to open up the package, the fact you can power it via an external plug opens up an entire potenital world of aftermarket power gadgets.
Do we know this yet for sure? For example, some electric razors can work directly from power sources. Others only indirectly - you charge the battery and then the device runs from battery power. If the battery can't hold a charge, I don't think it would run.

Not sure how the Reader works. But I'm inclined to think an adapter power source is sufficient even if the battery won't hold a charge - most electronics devices from calculators to pdas to laptops seem to not depend on a battery charge to operate. But I haven't heard any comments on the Sony Reader specifically.

I'd be thrilled if it still works via power cord even if the battery is long gone because then I should still be able to use it (while tethered to an outlet) for many years to come as long as I don't wear out the buttons or break the screen!
Bob Russell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2006, 02:18 AM   #21
William Moates
Zealot
William Moates began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 107
Karma: 35
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greensboro, NC
Device: Sony Librie / Sony Clie / Sony Reader
Wow, a lot of good posts here.

I agree with Cthulhu that Li-Ion is nearing the end of its innovation stage, so that 3-4 year battery life is what I'd expect.

I was waiting for someone to make the iPod comparison (thanks, Leaping Gnome), and was surprised it took so long. I think the Sony marketers (and many others) have been comparing, consciously or unconsciously, the prospects of the Reader to the iPod. The Reader has a similar price point to the original iPod, both use a non-replaceable lithium-ion battery, both are designed to be media players (not media editors), so both have a feature set of similar complexity. It looks like Sony is hoping for the same success.

As for lifespan, I think it will mimic iPods, so a five year life is reasonable. Here's why:

1. Batteries. The original battery will have a lifespan of a few years, but from the Reader internal pics posted in another post, the battery is plugged in, not soldered in, so it's replaceable. The Reader is designed to be serviced (screws, not plastic clips), so I think battery replacement service is expected but not easy, like changing the timing belt on a car. For your Reader to have a long life, expect to replace the battery a few times. With three years per battery, a ten-year lifespan is reasonable. (After that, the question becomes: "Do they make my battery any more?")

2. Case. Scotty1024 complained about the flakiness of the case on his Librie, and Sony has replaced that with a metal case, so they seem to have learned from that design flaw. The metal case is more rugged than a plastic one. It might get scratched, but scratches don't affect performance.

3. Temperature Stress. Temperature stresses are another way things wear out, and I haven't had (nor read) any complaints about the Reader heating up or overheating, so death by temperature stress seems unlikely.

4. Display. The biggest unknown is the E-ink display. From reading E-Ink's documentation on their website, the production process similar to (and simpler than) making active-matrix LCDs. I also remember mention of a segmented display at E-ink's offices running continuously for over 3 years. That bodes well for the lifespan of the screen.

5. Buttons. On any product, the moving parts tend to wear out first, unless they're designed to be sturdier. I have a TV remote that is 5-10 years old; the printing on the Mute button has partially worn off, but it still works fine. Unless Sony has skimped, the buttons should last.

6. Joystick Button. That little up/down/left/right/ENT thing, which I'm calling the joystick button, could wear out sooner because of it's complexity (compared to standard buttons), and I haven't seen it used in many (any?) other devices, so its lifespan is an unknown to me. I would expect it to be somewhat shorter than standard buttons, but I really don't know.

Since all of these points factor similarly into the lifespan of an iPod, I conclude it will have a similar durability.
William Moates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2006, 06:02 AM   #22
Nightwing
Addict
Nightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enough
 
Nightwing's Avatar
 
Posts: 303
Karma: 541
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: Cowon A2 Dell x3i, Sony Reader & Eee PC!
I have a joystick on the Cowon A2 I got back in April... So far so good... And would expect the Sony to continue ok also.

Did have the cover letter of the button on the 2nd gen Sony Stereo Beta fall off but was the glue and not the switches...

Wish I could take a pic of the Reader on display at Frys. That place is noted for wrecked equipment on display. Except for finger prints and looks like some one try to scrape the screen and failed. Look ok. Pop a few pages of the built in books and pix with no problems.

Last edited by Nightwing; 11-11-2006 at 06:04 AM.
Nightwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2006, 11:25 AM   #23
scotty1024
Banned
scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.scotty1024 is no ebook tyro.
 
Posts: 1,300
Karma: 1479
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Peoples Republic of Washington
Device: Reader / iPhone / Librie / Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Moates
I agree with Cthulhu that Li-Ion is nearing the end of its innovation stage, so that 3-4 year battery life is what I'd expect.
If you've been studying then you will also note that the life span of the batteries has been sacrificed in order to boost their recharge speed and capacities.

If the Reader only employed constant current charging I'd agree with you on the 3 to 4 years. But it doesn't. In addition the supplied external 2 amp charger brick would seem to indicate the possibility of Sony employing a very high current charge which is counter to long cycle life for these batteries.

Using the USB charging method would likely result in longer service life for the Sony Reader due to there only being .5 amp of power available via that means.

Either way, I haven't seen anyone getting 3 or 4 years out of a lithium battery unless they were willing to tolerate using the battery at 10% of original capacity. And yes, I have met iPod owners that happily tell me "Yes, I still get 15 minutes playtime on the battery!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Moates
2. Case. Scotty1024 complained about the flakiness of the case on his Librie, and Sony has replaced that with a metal case, so they seem to have learned from that design flaw. The metal case is more rugged than a plastic one. It might get scratched, but scratches don't affect performance.
The pearlescene plastic of the Librie might as well just be called "Fahrenheit 451 plastic". They put little chips of plastic into it to give it that pearl effect and those chips then lead to micro fractures that then lead to major fractures. It does look real pretty until it falls apart.

The main body of the Reader is indeed metal. But the side's appear to be chrome plated plastic caps. It has been my experience that sweat and skin oils make chrome plated plastic about as durable as the pearlescene plastic.

You will note the unfortunate placement of the plastic vs where humans will contact the unit with sweat and skin oils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Moates
3. Temperature Stress. Temperature stresses are another way things wear out, and I haven't had (nor read) any complaints about the Reader heating up or overheating, so death by temperature stress seems unlikely.
There are two forms of temperature stress you didn't mention. Environmental and that from hacking/3rd party software.

The e-Ink panel and battery are both impacted by environmental temperature, and the metal case provides less protection from environmental temperature than a plastic case. The life of the battery is heavily impacted by being charged at a mere 40C, which is only slightly above body temperature e.g. the unit won't even feel "hot".

The native software on the Reader is low power in nature. But as people start hacking their readers the low power software will be joined by higher power 3rd party applications that keep the CPU/DRAM running longer and thus generating more heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Moates
4. Display. The biggest unknown is the E-ink display. From reading E-Ink's documentation on their website, the production process similar to (and simpler than) making active-matrix LCDs. I also remember mention of a segmented display at E-ink's offices running continuously for over 3 years. That bodes well for the lifespan of the screen.
The production of e-Ink panels is very different from that of active matrix LCD's. The e-Ink panels are made using technology similar to an ink jet printer. The concern I have about the 2nd generation panels is that they gained speed by doubling the voltage applied to the electrophoretic process. This doubled voltage seems to be stressing the conductors in the panels as the incidences of panel failure with the 2nd generation panels are strikingly higher than they were for the 1st generation panels.

There are several other factors that will impact Reader life span.

1. UV from sunshine, UV radiation will likely break down the organic components of the display. A Sharper Image Ionic Breeze with GP UV lamp, keep it well away from your panel.
2. Heating and cooling from indoor/outdoor jaunts. A happy long life Reader is likely an indoor only Reader.
3. Solvents can migrate through the plastic cover and break down the organic materials in the panel. Do yourself a favor, never use Windex/Scrubbing Bubbles to clean your panel, never put tape or sticky notes on it. But how many "Average Joe's" will?
4. Mechanical stress from things lying against the panel, or pressing into the panel are already known to harm the panels. Iliad users report killing their panels by leaving iPod nano's or cell phones lying on their panels over night. How many "Average Joe's" will use their panel to hold a sticky note while the write on it with a ball point pen?
5. Moisture is one of the normal killers for mobile devices and the e-Ink panels are vulnerable to this at a fundamental level: the oil the ink capsules are suspended in. They've tried to seal it but water is the universal solvent and people will apply it to keep the panel clean.
6. Microbes and fungi, the organic components of the e-Ink panel are vulnerable to being eaten. Laugh if you will but even CD-R and MO discs have had their bouts with failures that lead to their being destroyed by this process.
7. Burn in. Iliad owners have had to have their panels replaced because the panel had been left displaying the same image for too long (due to some failure in the unit that prevented clearing the display). Is there a long term burn in effect we haven't seen yet? (the 3 year old panels have been kept cycling, not burning in)
8. Forgotten Readers. Deep discharge (forgotten/lost) forms short circuits in the battery. In addition leaving a Reader forgotten while plugged in full time isn't wonderful for the battery either (see more on this in the next item).
9. Constantly keeping a lithium ion battery at full charge promotes corrosion inside the battery. In this case the low power of the e-Ink panel is a potential negative. Many users report that hooking up their Readers periodically to download content keeps the units full charged all the time. The chemistry in the battery is at its best for life span at around 40% charge.

Those 3 year old panels are the 1st generation lower voltage panels so they don't say much about the Reader's second generation panel. They've also been kept indoors under controlled conditions. I'd have been more impressed if they'd put a panel or two in their cars for 3 years.
scotty1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2006, 04:30 PM   #24
bob_ninja
Addict
bob_ninja will become famous soon enoughbob_ninja will become famous soon enoughbob_ninja will become famous soon enoughbob_ninja will become famous soon enoughbob_ninja will become famous soon enoughbob_ninja will become famous soon enough
 
Posts: 204
Karma: 582
Join Date: Aug 2006
Device: Zire71
A lot of good info. Thanks for the tips.
I found the pics of internals

Seems the battery is very easy to access and should be easy to replace. Even the mod to replace with AAs should be easy. I feel much better on that account. Of course, the e-ink tek is new, so hard to tell at this point how durable it is. Anyway I may reconsider and purchase one, after software update to fix PDF rendering and lack of folders.

Again thanks for the info
bob_ninja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 11:30 AM   #25
Cthulhu
Technologist
Cthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura aboutCthulhu has a spectacular aura about
 
Cthulhu's Avatar
 
Posts: 485
Karma: 4479
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I'm between Cities
Device: SONY Reader PRS-500
Scotty1024--
My hat's off to you. Seems that you are more than a mere hobbyist in terms of researching new tech.

On the subject of the screen--especially its possible degredation, scratches, &tc--I wonder if using a static coversheet, like I have on my Treo, would add at least one level of protection. Anyone know how large they make those sheets? Most of the ones I've seen are for the tiny screens of PDA's.

Another question: what does SONY recommend as the best way to clean the Reader's screen?
Cthulhu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 12:40 PM   #26
raevyn1
Connoisseur
raevyn1 doesn't litterraevyn1 doesn't litter
 
Posts: 56
Karma: 148
Join Date: Jul 2006
Device: iLiad, Sony Reader, Treo 755p, Palm T|X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Another question: what does SONY recommend as the best way to clean the Reader's screen?
The operation manual states the case should be cleaned "with a soft cloth, such as a cleaning cloth for eyeglasses." There is both a warning against letting water get into the Reader openings, but if the Reader's case (again) gets "very dirty" then a cloth moistened with water maybe used. No alcohol/solvents.
Note there is no mention about care of the screen itself. No mention at Sony eSupport either.

I find a microfiber lens cloth suffices, but I agree the right-sized screen protector would be even better.

Cleaning section of op manual is attached.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CapPRS.jpg
Views:	120
Size:	94.1 KB
ID:	2170  
raevyn1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 02:21 PM   #27
Nightwing
Addict
Nightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enough
 
Nightwing's Avatar
 
Posts: 303
Karma: 541
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: Cowon A2 Dell x3i, Sony Reader & Eee PC!
Wonder if the stuff Iklean would work. Its safe for LCD screens and Mac cases.
Nightwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 03:06 PM   #28
raevyn1
Connoisseur
raevyn1 doesn't litterraevyn1 doesn't litter
 
Posts: 56
Karma: 148
Join Date: Jul 2006
Device: iLiad, Sony Reader, Treo 755p, Palm T|X
Sure, I guess that iKlear or Klear Screen should be safe and effective, as they're mostly (83%) water. MSDS appears benign enough, though I kinda wonder what those 15% "proprietary" ingredients are. I've never used them. I'd like to hear from fellow MRers who have experience with iKlear or Klear Screen.
raevyn1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 03:48 PM   #29
Nightwing
Addict
Nightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enoughNightwing will become famous soon enough
 
Nightwing's Avatar
 
Posts: 303
Karma: 541
Join Date: Oct 2006
Device: Cowon A2 Dell x3i, Sony Reader & Eee PC!
Quote:
Originally Posted by raevyn1
Sure, I guess that iKlear or Klear Screen should be safe and effective, as they're mostly (83%) water. MSDS appears benign enough, though I kinda wonder what those 15% "proprietary" ingredients are. I've never used them. I'd like to hear from fellow MRers who have experience with iKlear or Klear Screen.
I uses it with a fresh micro cloth to scrape gunk off of LCD screen that pop in.
Nightwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 06:37 PM   #30
Bill P
Junior Member
Bill P began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 2
Karma: 10
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Colorado
Device: sony reader PRS-500
Re. Batteries
How about solar cell. Built into case it could either trickle charge the battery keeping it fully charged and extendign its life. Or possible even a solar cell with small capacitor could replace the battery. I haven't done any calculations yet but with the extremely low power consumption the unit has it seems this would not be infeasible.
Bill P is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
E-ink screen lifespan? 301verbs News 21 05-22-2009 12:54 PM
Kindle 2 Longevity? pookielocks Amazon Kindle 12 03-08-2009 08:26 PM
Kindle battery lifespan? gueeds Amazon Kindle 75 02-27-2009 12:26 PM
Longevity??? Toshanda Which one should I buy? 4 08-20-2008 08:42 AM
eInk longevity alex_d Sony Reader 3 12-14-2006 03:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:41 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.