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Old 05-17-2010, 10:57 PM   #31
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Just out of interest, what do gun makers market their goods as being for? Shooting clay targets, something like that?
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The only one that doesn't involve using a gun to kill something would be target shooting. So it would seem to me that the main use of a gun would be to kill? How do different gun manufacturers make their product more appealing than that of other gun manufacturers?
The original post to which I replied was in reference to gun makers being liable for all the murders that are committed.

Killing something or even someone is not necessarily murder and is not necessarily even illegal.

I think you would find that gun makers may be held liable if they were advertising their gun to be the best for when that drug deal goes wrong and you just need to pop a cap in that mofo's ass or were actively encouraging their customers to use their weapons to murder people.

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Old 05-17-2010, 11:15 PM   #32
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Well, think again. Not only we can (like in talking all kinda nonsense, that internet is famous for), but in fact as a people who pay money for what we need - we must.
Not, that I am all for poor or hobby writers, but talks about the right of a writer to be make a comfortable living and his children to be paid 50 years after he cannot be paid is a little too much to swallow. Everybody should be rewarded, but the current copyright and drm system are so bad, that their good purpose and goals are as useful as water in rubbing alcohol for quenching the thirst.
Think about painters for a second, once you sold a picture you don't tell the new owner what to do and how and for how long to display the new painting.
Talk of DRM, copyright length and all the rest is really only tangentially related to the right or otherwise of an author to make a living from their work.

An author does have the right to make a living from their work if they can find a way to do so.

You, as a consumer, have the right to purchase their work or not as you see fit. I would even agree that once purchased you should, and do imho, have the right to remove DRM for your own personal use.

Suggestions that authors should not have the right to make a living from their work sounds like nothing else but sour grapes. Especially when you add "I'm all for poor or hobby writers". It makes it sound like you simply don't think someone should be able to earn a living doing something they love and is "easy"(labour wise) when you have to go out and earn a living doing a "real job".(so to speak)

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Old 05-17-2010, 11:39 PM   #33
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Talk of DRM, copyright length and all the rest is really only tangentially related to the right or otherwise of an author to make a living from their work.

<snip>
Especially when you add "I'm all for poor or hobby writers". It makes it sound like you simply don't think someone should be able to earn a living doing something they love and is "easy"(labour wise) when you have to go out and earn a living doing a "real job".(so to speak)

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I am pretty sure I put "Not" in front of "for poor writers", I think anybody should have an opportunity to earn from his work, of course they should. I find the word right is putting it too strongly for a majority of DRM discussions I witnessed here.
I also disagree, that "DRM and the rest are only tangentially related", the publishers tell you otherwise, many authors insist otherwise or want you to believe anyway. Currently the publishers greed, drm and authors income tied so tight, that it takes a major effort from the author to separate itself from this tangle and I cheer these authors that do so from the bottom of my heart.
The point people trying to make is that there was (for thousands of years) other ways for creative people to make living from creative work.
Sorry you missed the point of my post and the post I replied to.
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:46 PM   #34
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Since so many are harping on about publishers' and authors' "greed". What about consumers' greed? Isn't wanting something for free just as greedy?
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:23 AM   #35
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Since so many are harping on about publishers' and authors' "greed". What about consumers' greed? Isn't wanting something for free just as greedy?
Not the same thing. There's a monopoly controlling the supply. If electronic goods were offered in an open market where after fixed costs such as hosting and royalties were added in and anyone would be able to sell beyond that at a profit then you might have a point as prices would go down to whatever the lowest profit per unit someone would accept is. At that point you might have a case for greed but there's nothnig greedy about not wanting to pay monopoly prices.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:35 AM   #36
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And the cost of creating, of marketing? In the end, not wanting to pay for other people's efforts is greed.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:52 AM   #37
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I am pretty sure I put "Not" in front of "for poor writers", I think anybody should have an opportunity to earn from his work, of course they should. I find the word right is putting it too strongly for a majority of DRM discussions I witnessed here.
I also disagree, that "DRM and the rest are only tangentially related", the publishers tell you otherwise, many authors insist otherwise or want you to believe anyway. Currently the publishers greed, drm and authors income tied so tight, that it takes a major effort from the author to separate itself from this tangle and I cheer these authors that do so from the bottom of my heart.
The point people trying to make is that there was (for thousands of years) other ways for creative people to make living from creative work.
Sorry you missed the point of my post and the post I replied to.
Sounds like I did miss the point of your post and for that I apologise.

However, I don't see why a distinction should be made between "poor hobby writers" and successful writers when it comes to having a right to earn money from their efforts.

The word right in the context of this discussion does not mean that anyone who wants to make a living from writing should simply be paid to do so. It means that if someone wants to charge for their work and attempt to earn a living that way then they have the right to do that.

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Old 05-18-2010, 12:57 AM   #38
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And the cost of creating, of marketing? In the end, not wanting to pay for other people's efforts is greed.
Creating is where I placed royalty in my example, as for marketing if every person in that profession dropped dead right now I wouldn't shed a tear but one could figure that into their price too if they feel its needed its still no justification for monopoly pricing.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:23 AM   #39
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there are no real monopolies in publishing, you can always buy a different book or read any of the millions of legally free books. Just as you can buy a different brand of car.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:35 AM   #40
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Generally its one publisher per book, 2 gas stations neat each other can drive prices down, gas is gas. But Barnes and Noble and Amazon have the same single source who decides on their profit with no competition. Your argument doesn't hold water unless book music and move publishing contracts are non exclusive.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:07 AM   #41
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Generally its one publisher per book, 2 gas stations neat each other can drive prices down, gas is gas. But Barnes and Noble and Amazon have the same single source who decides on their profit with no competition. Your argument doesn't hold water unless book music and move publishing contracts are non exclusive.
What you are referring to works only for commodities. But is a car a car, a shirt a shirt? Sure, if you think a Chinese brand is the same as a Ferrari... There is a "monopoly" on everything except commodities. But you always have alternatives or you can do without the item.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:56 AM   #42
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No, a digital good if such a thing exists doesn't need to have only once source. If a publishing contract was non exclusive then publishers would have to complete on price or in some other way on the same books/music/movies. It can work it does work newspapers all of them can pay a fee to use associated press material and then charge whatever they want for their papers. Since anyone who's a member or pays the fee can use it thy have to compete on something other than that content. This would keep any single publisher from holding material hostage for a high price, a monopoly price since someone else could come along and offer the same thing but take less of a per unit profit. The lowest bidder makes the sale because anyone who's willing to pay gets the best price anyone is willing to offer. The copyright holder still gets paid their licensing fee, everyone wins the only thing that goes down is the publisher's profit margin and that was only higher because they had a monopoly on a particular work.

I'd be a free market, if the tea baggers knew how to read they'd be all over this idea.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:59 AM   #43
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It's good to see limewire go down! I hate these sights that somehow think it is their god-given right to get in the way of an artist trying to make a living, call it free speech, when it is really free beer they want.


This talk about author's rights to make a living I find fascinating. I think peoples view on this is a mirror in some respects to their approach to politics and life. And like politics, at the fringes you might as well be the same....

So, take my opinion, and call me a communist, etc...

1) An artist has a right to charge for his/her creation and distribute it in a way and for a price he/she see's fit, within reason (see 5).

2) A consumer has a moral responsibility to respect this right. A consumer can decide not to consume (except in the case of Lady Gaga, which seems to be pushing at me from all directions...).

3) Corollary to (1): Any talk about "Monopolies" or even grumbling about Distribution Models (as fun as it is to hate the RIAA, publishers, etc) is ridiculous and non-nonsensical in regards to art. Their are exceptions, as in when publisher, RIAA, etc. are not respecting (1).

4) Extension of (2): A consumer, in addition to having a moral responsibility to respect an artists wishes regarding (1), should seek to consume art in such a way which compensates artists and contributes to the artists ability to continue to produce art. In other words, Used Books / CDs / etc. should be avoided when possible, as a courtesy to the artist. I think as we move to Digital, an artist desire to be compensated in a way he/she see's fit can be extended in ways it has not been possible before, as we have tended to view art as transferable in a way digital media is not.

5) Corollary to (1): The law and the implementation of the law should strive to recognize (1), while still acknowledging fair use and legitimate rights of consumers, such as anti-trust concerns with format, etc. In other words, an Author is within her rights to use Penguin books as a distributor, and allow them to charge $1,000,000 a copy of each book, but is not within her rights to require that the reader read the book using reading glasses sold by the Author's Husband, which offer no advantage over other glasses except the license to read said author's work. In much shorter terms, you have the right to charge be $12, but not to say I have to read it on a Kindle.


So am I a commie? Is being a commie so bad anymore after the capitalist demonstrated what lying, cheating, and stealing in the name of shareholder value gets us?
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:16 AM   #44
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riemann42 it's a monopoly no two ways about it. Should have have been time limited, now in effect it isn't. Why should an author have the right to chose a publisher to have exclusive rights for 150 years?
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:51 AM   #45
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riemann42 it's a monopoly no two ways about it. Should have have been time limited, now in effect it isn't. Why should an author have the right to chose a publisher to have exclusive rights for 150 years?
Ahh. Copyright time limit is certainly an issue, and in the case of current US Law, certainly falls under the abusive acts discussed in (5). Certainly if an artist, his/her spouse, and children are all dead it make little sense.

Monopoly, however, makes very little sense as a concept when discussing art. It is technically applicable, but it is certainly not a bad thing, so it is at best misleading to discuss compensation for art in these terms. Indeed, I think copyright makes very little sense as well, other than a means of enforcing an artists desire, and creating a legal framework to allow artists to charge for their works without fear of theft.

I prefer to discuss these things in the following terms: I enjoy art. I want artists to produce art. I don't want crap art. I pay artists for their work. I pay good (and frankly prolific) artists more. People who do not pay for art clearly like art, but not well enough to support artists, or at least not well enough to support good artists. Copyright and harping on legal rights ignores the moral responsibilities of all parties involved.

The producers of LimeWire and Torrent Sites are scum. They hate art and artists, and pretend like they believe the exact opposite.
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