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Old 04-06-2010, 06:43 AM   #1
pdurrant
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iBooks, ePub, embedded fonts & encryption

The current version of adobe Digital Editions still doesn't support the IDPF standard way of encrypting fonts embedded in an ePub. Instead it supports Adobe's own non-standard method.

The question I'd like answered is "Does the iPad's ePub reader support IDPF encrypted fonts?" It would also be interesting to know "Does the iPad's ePub reader support Adobe encrypted fonts?"

So, I attach two sample ePubs, one with IDPF encrypted fonts, and one with Adobe encrypted fonts. Could someone with an iPad download the sample ePub and give it a go? Thanks.

If the embedded fonts work, the title page will look something like the attached image.

Hopefully it'll work! If it doesn't, it might be my encoding, or it might be that it's not supported...
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File Type: epub Kai Lung Raises His Voice Sample_idpf.epub (225.8 KB, 331 views)
File Type: epub Kai Lung Raises His Voice Sample_adobe.epub (225.8 KB, 269 views)
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:53 PM   #2
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Much to my dismay, iBook doesn't support embedded fonts at all. I spent a good part of yesterday trying to get it to work, but it just doesn't. Others have found the same thing: http://blog.threepress.org/2010/04/05/ibooks-and-epub/.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danegeld View Post
Much to my dismay, iBook doesn't support embedded fonts at all. I spent a good part of yesterday trying to get it to work, but it just doesn't. Others have found the same thing: http://blog.threepress.org/2010/04/05/ibooks-and-epub/.
Ugh. It never occurred to me that unencrypted otf and ttf embedded fonts wouldn't be supported. What are Apple thinking of?
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:36 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Ugh. It never occurred to me that unencrypted otf and ttf embedded fonts wouldn't be supported. What are Apple thinking of?
This is why I am holding off on getting an iPad. I want to see if someone brings out a decent ePub app.
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Old 04-09-2010, 04:11 AM   #5
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The Threepress review is very interesting, their ibis reader probably works quite nicely on the iPad. iBooks is definitely Apples first attempt at ePub, what is good is that it is an alternative to the moibile-ADE based readers. Competition and new ideas are always good. It is a shame that it seems unlikely that Stanza will be optimised for iPad, with a few tweaks for the larger screen it could be quite servicable, even though it too has problems with many CSS constructs (avoided by turning off Styles)
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Old 05-22-2010, 08:41 AM   #6
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Embedding Seems to Work on the iPad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Ugh. It never occurred to me that unencrypted otf and ttf embedded fonts wouldn't be supported. What are Apple thinking of?
I am confused by your comments because when creating a PDF and then converting with Calibre to ePub, the extended character set of Tahoma shows up in the ePub document on the iPad. That by any other name is embedding in my book, because the extended characters are not supported by the default fonts on the iPad, and yet show up in my ePub on the iPad when I'm done converting the documents.

The big question is legality. For example, I don't know if by going through these steps the Tahoma font is encrypted to the point where it will not violate the font license agreement, because Ascender (the company which distributes the font) does not permit distribution for commercial purposes, and eBooks are considered commercial as far as they are concerned.

Does the font get encrypted enough to meet the legal requirements for distribution? If not, is there is something else that I one can do to make it encrypted (enough) to be a legal document (for sale in the iBookstore)?


I would appreciate some direction in finding enough to read on this subject so that I don't get sued and lose everything including the kitchen sink. Is there a good resource on the web that someone can point me to ...that is understandable for the average writer ?? (I am a writer, but not a technical writer and, therefore, I need something that is written in such a way that it can be understood by non-programmers).


Thanks (in advance).
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:17 AM   #7
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I don't have an iPad, so I've had to rely on others, who have reported that embedded fonts are not supported in ePub on the iPad.

If your ePub contains otf or ttf fonts and the iPad does display them that's very interesting.

Has anyone else got direct experience with ePubs, embedded fonts and the iPad?

The only way to tell if you're using a font within its licence is to read the licence and see what it says. If it is unclear, you'll need to ask the font foundry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadhu View Post
I am confused by your comments because when creating a PDF and then converting with Calibre to ePub, the extended character set of Tahoma shows up in the ePub document on the iPad. That by any other name is embedding in my book, because the extended characters are not supported by the default fonts on the iPad, and yet show up in my ePub on the iPad when I'm done converting the documents.

The big question is legality. For example, I don't know if by going through these steps the Tahoma font is encrypted to the point where it will not violate the font license agreement, because Ascender (the company which distributes the font) does not permit distribution for commercial purposes, and eBooks are considered commercial as far as they are concerned.

Does the font get encrypted enough to meet the legal requirements for distribution? If not, is there is something else that I one can do to make it encrypted (enough) to be a legal document (for sale in the iBookstore)?


I would appreciate some direction in finding enough to read on this subject so that I don't get sued and lose everything including the kitchen sink. Is there a good resource on the web that someone can point me to ...that is understandable for the average writer ?? (I am a writer, but not a technical writer and, therefore, I need something that is written in such a way that it can be understood by non-programmers).


Thanks (in advance).
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
I don't have an iPad, so I've had to rely on others, who have reported that embedded fonts are not supported in ePub on the iPad.

If your ePub contains otf or ttf fonts and the iPad does display them that's very interesting.

Has anyone else got direct experience with ePubs, embedded fonts and the iPad?

The only way to tell if you're using a font within its licence is to read the license and see what it says. If it is unclear, you'll need to ask the font foundry.
Sadhu is way off base here. iBooks does not support embedded fonts.

Overdrive are working on an app for the iPad which will handle Adept DRM. I'm hoping it will be a full fledged ADE with the ability to put our own eBook on the iPad to use with this.

Last edited by JSWolf; 05-22-2010 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:42 PM   #9
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I'm pretty sure the iPad does not support embedded fonts. What is confusing to some people though, is iBooks shows a very small selection of fonts in its font selection popover. But that isn't the entire list of fonts iBooks supports. The entire list is here:

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...s-on-ipad.html

So if you are seeing fonts that aren't in the iBooks list, it could be one of these being called in the CSS alternatives, or iBooks is replacing it on its own.

P.S. What are SVG fonts? Because someone posted that those are supported?

Last edited by kjk; 05-22-2010 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:23 AM   #10
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Hey, I have an iPad right in front of me, and I am looking at the extended character set of Tahoma, and viewing it right now on my iPad.

I looked at the so called complete list of iBook supported fonts in your pigshourdanswikis.com example, and didn't see Tahoma listed. But below is an brief example of Tahoma's extended character set, used to give the Transliterated Sanskrit in one of our books.

yogaś citta vṛtti nirodhaḥ
tadā draṣṭuḥ svarūpe 'vasthānaṃ
vṛtti sārūpyam itaratra
vṛttayaḥ pañcatayyaḥ kliṣṭā 'kliṣṭāḥ

So, okay, if it's not embedding, and Tahoma is not on your list, how is the iBook showing these extended characters. To my knowledge these extended characters show up differently using fonts other than Tahoma. If Tahoma is not on the list, how is it that I can see them? I'd really like to know.

Look, and this is directed at not only JsWolf and Kjk but anyone who thinks I am trying to show off, and say that others are wrong. That would petty, and stupid, to say nothing a big waste of time. If you thought I was trying to show you up as wrong, I sincerely apologize, because that was not my intension.

No, the only reason I took the time to write this (I don't lurk in forums, and I certainly don't like show off) is because I want to understand how it is I can see these characters that I am not supposed to see, based on what people are saying. Perhaps there is a greater number of fonts that do also support these same extended characters. However, it was my understanding that this was not the case. I have tried many fonts, and the special characters do not show up.

Of course, in addition, it had been my understanding was that fonts could be embedded (though not encrypted) in ePubs, and so I assumed the same would be true in any ePub document. I'd actually be happier to learn that the font was not embedded and simply able to be read by the iPad, because then, I wouldn't have to worry about violating font licensing.

Is there anyone who is a publishing professional who has confronted this whole issue head on, and can clear up my confusion?
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:23 AM   #11
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not to dismiss the readers here, but your question might be better posted on apple's support forums. we're a smart bunch but not a replacement for the real thing.
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadhu View Post
Hey, I have an iPad right in front of me, and I am looking at the extended character set of Tahoma, and viewing it right now on my iPad.

I looked at the so called complete list of iBook supported fonts in your pigshourdanswikis.com example, and didn't see Tahoma listed. But below is an brief example of Tahoma's extended character set, used to give the Transliterated Sanskrit in one of our books.

yogaś citta vṛtti nirodhaḥ
tadā draṣṭuḥ svarūpe 'vasthānaṃ
vṛtti sārūpyam itaratra
vṛttayaḥ pañcatayyaḥ kliṣṭā 'kliṣṭāḥ

So, okay, if it's not embedding, and Tahoma is not on your list, how is the iBook showing these extended characters. To my knowledge these extended characters show up differently using fonts other than Tahoma. If Tahoma is not on the list, how is it that I can see them? I'd really like to know.
I think its interesting! Perhaps Tahoma was missed in that list posted...I think people are still discovering what iBooks is capable of. But I do know a lot of eBook professionals have been doing testing on what the extents are for iBooks, for obvious reasons.

From what I've read to date, the iPad does not include Tahoma, and iBooks does not support embeddable fonts-with the exception of the @font-face tag for SVG fonts, according to one researcher.

Can you do a screenshot of your text in Tahoma? I'd like to see it if possible. I do know there is nothing stopping 3rd party apps from theoretically supporting embedded fonts, so maybe iBooks does but its just not implemented/documented completely yet.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:22 PM   #13
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadhu View Post
I do not believe that is displaying Tahoma-I think Tahoma is a sans serif family typeface.

http://www.codestyle.org/servlets/Fo...ma&font=Tahoma
http://www.fontco.com/tahoma.php
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadhu View Post
So, okay, if it's not embedding, and Tahoma is not on your list, how is the iBook showing these extended characters.
The iPad (and, more generally, Mac OS X) will substitute any available font to fill in missing characters. My guess is while the iPad doesn't have Tahoma, it does have a font with those characters and is showing that instead.

Quote:
To my knowledge these extended characters show up differently using fonts other than Tahoma.
They probably do. Have you compared the iPad's display with how that same text looks in Tahoma?
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