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Old 03-23-2010, 07:29 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sianon View Post
Have you ever stopped to consider that it is rather an egocentric point of view to think that Amazon would consider you as an individual to be worth specifically monitoring what you read. For heavens sake, you are accessing the internet and every site you visit is being recorded by your ISP and can be accessed if required.
Amazon monitoring just one person is all but a worthless effort, but you get Amazon monitoring 2 million customers and suddenly you have some very very valuable data. I myself don't like the idea of a company being sent information on what I am reading, for how long, current page etc etc.

I am only singling out Amazon as an example as they are the primary company mentioned in this thread. No doubt there are many many others that data mine.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:54 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
Read the agreement.

"information related to the content on your Device and your use of it"

Not "content you have bought from us", "content on your device". Remember, I am not talking about what Amazon does, I am talking about what the agreement allows them to do.
bullshit. here's the whole thing;

1. The Device and Related Services
The Kindle Device (the "Device") is a portable electronic reading device that utilizes wireless connectivity to enable users to shop for, download, browse, and read books, newspapers, magazines, blogs, and other materials, all subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. The "Service" means the wireless connectivity, provision of digital content, software and support, and other services and support that Amazon provides Device users.

2. Wireless Connectivity
General. Amazon provides wireless connectivity free of charge to you for certain content shopping and downloading services on your Device. You may be charged a fee for wireless connectivity for your use of other wireless services on your Device, such as Web browsing and downloading of personal files, should you elect to use those services. We will maintain a list of current fees for such services in the Kindle Store. Amazon reserves the right to discontinue wireless connectivity at any time or to otherwise change the terms for wireless connectivity at any time, including, but not limited to (a) limiting the number and size of data files that may be transferred using wireless connectivity and (b) changing the amount and terms applicable for wireless connectivity charges.

Coverage and Service Interruptions. You acknowledge that if your Device is located in any area without applicable wireless connectivity, you may not be able to use some or all elements of the wireless services. We are not responsible for the unavailability of wireless service or any interruptions of wireless connectivity.

Your Conduct. You agree you will use the wireless connectivity provided by Amazon only in connection with Services Amazon provides for the Device. You may not use the wireless connectivity for any other purpose.

3. Digital Content
The Kindle Store. The Kindle Store enables you to download, display and use on your Device a variety of digitized electronic content, such as books, subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, journals and other periodicals, blogs, RSS feeds, and other digital content, as determined by Amazon from time to time (individually and collectively, "Digital Content").

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

Restrictions. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, bypass, modify, defeat or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content.

Subscriptions. The following applies with respect to Digital Content made available to you on a subscription basis, including, but not limited to, electronic newspapers, magazines, journals and other periodicals (collectively, "Periodicals"): (i) you may request cancellation of your subscription by following the cancellation instructions in the Kindle Store; (ii) we may terminate a subscription at our discretion without notice, for example, if a Periodical is no longer available; (iii) if we terminate a subscription in advance of the end of its term, we will give you a prorated refund; (iv) we reserve the right to change subscription terms and fees from time to time, effective as of the beginning of the next term; and (v) taxes may apply to subscription fees and will be added if applicable.

4. Software
Definitions. The following terms apply to the Device and to (a) all software (and the media on which such software is distributed) of Amazon or third parties that is pre-installed on the Device at time of purchase or that Amazon provides as updates/upgrades to the pre-installed software (collectively, the "Device Software"), unless you agree to other terms as part of an update/upgrade process; and (b) any printed, on-line or other electronic documentation for such software (the "Documentation"). As used in this Agreement, "Software" means, collectively, the Device Software and Documentation.

Use of the Device Software. You may use the Device Software only on the Device. You may not separate any individual component of the Device Software for use on another device or computer, may not transfer it for use on another device or use it, or any portion of it, over a network and may not sell, rent, lease, lend, distribute or sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Software in whole or in part.

No Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, Disassembly or Circumvention. You may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, modify, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Device or the Software, whether in whole or in part, create any derivative works from or of the Software, or bypass, modify, defeat or tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Device or Software or any mechanisms operatively linked to the Software, including, but not limited to, augmenting or substituting any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software.

Automatic Updates. In order to keep your Software up-to-date, Amazon may automatically provide your Device with updates/upgrades to the Software.

Export Regulations. You agree to comply with all export and re-export restrictions and regulations of the Department of Commerce and other United States agencies and authorities, and not to transfer, or encourage, assist or authorize the transfer of the Software to a prohibited country or otherwise in violation of any such restrictions or regulations.

Government End Users. The Software is a "Commercial item" as that term is defined at 48 C.F.R. § 2.101, consisting of "Commercial Computer Software" and "Commercial Computer Software Documentation," as such terms are used in 48 C.F.R. §12.212 or 48 C.F.R. § 227.7202, as applicable. Consistent with these provisions, the Software is being licensed to U.S. Government end users (a) only as a Commercial item and (b) with only those rights as are granted to all other end users pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.

5. General
No Illegal Use and Reservation of Rights. You may not use the Device, the Service or the Digital Content for any illegal purpose. You acknowledge that the sale of the Device to you does not transfer to you title to or ownership of any intellectual property rights of Amazon or its suppliers. All of the Software is licensed, not sold, and such license is non-exclusive.

Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.

Patents. The Device and/or methods used in association with the Device may be covered by one or more patents or pending patent applications.

Changes to Service. Amazon reserves the right to modify, suspend, or discontinue the Service at any time, and Amazon will not be liable to you should it exercise such right.

Termination. Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate without notice from Amazon if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement. In case of such termination, you must cease all use of the Software and Amazon may immediately revoke your access to the Service or to Digital Content without notice to you and without refund of any fees. Amazon's failure to insist upon or enforce your strict compliance with this Agreement will not constitute a waiver of any of its rights.

Disclaimer of Warranties. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE SERVICE, DEVICE, DIGITAL CONTENT AND SOFTWARE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. EXCEPT FOR THE ONE-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY, THE SERVICE, DEVICE, DIGITAL CONTENT AND SOFTWARE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND AND AMAZON AND ITS SUPPLIERS AND LICENSORS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, QUIET ENJOYMENT AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD-PARTY RIGHTS. NO ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY AMAZON OR AN AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE OF AMAZON SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY. THE LAWS OF CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE DISCLAIMER OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES. IF THESE LAWS APPLY TO YOU, SOME OR ALL OF THE ABOVE DISCLAIMERS, EXCLUSIONS OR LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU, AND YOU MAY HAVE ADDITIONAL RIGHTS.

Limitation of Liability. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY LAW, NEITHER AMAZON NOR ITS SUPPLIERS OR LICENSORS SHALL BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES FOR BREACH OF ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY RELATED TO THE SERVICE, DEVICE, DIGITAL CONTENT OR SOFTWARE, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF LOSS OF PROFITS, REVENUE, DATA OR USE OF THE DEVICE OR SOFTWARE OR ANY ASSOCIATED PRODUCT, EVEN IF AMAZON HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN ANY CASE, AMAZON'S AGGREGATE LIABILITY UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID FOR THE DEVICE. THE LAWS OF CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. IF THESE LAWS APPLY TO YOU, SOME OR ALL OF THE ABOVE EXCLUSIONS OR LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU, AND YOU MAY HAVE ADDITIONAL RIGHTS.

Washington Law Applies. The laws of the state of Washington, without regard to principles of conflict of laws, will govern this Agreement and any dispute of any sort that might arise between you and Amazon.

Disputes. ANY DISPUTE ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING IN ANYWAY TO THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO CONFIDENTIAL ARBITRATION IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON, EXCEPT THAT, TO THE EXTENT YOU HAVE IN ANY MANNER VIOLATED OR THREATENED TO VIOLATE AMAZON'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS, AMAZON MAY SEEK INJUNCTIVE OR OTHER APPROPRIATE RELIEF IN ANY STATE OR FEDERAL COURT IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, AND YOU CONSENT TO EXCLUSIVE JURISDICTION AND VENUE IN SUCH COURTS. The arbitrator's award shall be binding and may be entered as a judgment in any court of competent jurisdiction. To the fullest extent permitted by applicable law, no arbitration under this Agreement shall be joined to an arbitration involving any other party subject to this Agreement, whether through class arbitration proceedings or otherwise.

Severability. If any term or condition of this Agreement shall be deemed invalid, void, or for any reason unenforceable, that part shall be deemed severable and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining term or condition.

Amendment. Amazon reserves the right to amend any of the terms of this Agreement at its sole discretion by posting the revised terms on the Kindle Store or the Amazon.com website. Your continued use of the Device and Software after the effective date of any such amendment shall be deemed your agreement to be bound by such amendment.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:10 PM   #63
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That does look mostly harmless, to be honest.

My gripes with a Kindle would be device lock-in, lack of folder support and no touch screen - this doesn't look like much of an issue compared to those.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
If you support an action which should of seen a criminal case and a considerable fine against them, well, lecture time then I'll ignore you in this thread.
I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me, but I suggest you look into what actually happened. One of the big issues was the loss of someone's annotations that were also removed when the book "1984" was deleted due to copyright violations (unknown to Amazon at the time they sold it), and that resulted in a lawsuit against Amazon. After that, I think that all e-book sellers tightened up their actions.

Kindlekitten, you won't get thru to these people, they can't hear thru tinfoil.
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:29 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by vaughnmr View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me, but I suggest you look into what actually happened. One of the big issues was the loss of someone's annotations..
Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud. And I am of the strong opinion that such cases should be prosecuted in the public interest. A few tens of millions of pounds of fines to demonstrate that would not go amiss, afaik.

(To be clear, I have very little tolerance for any corporation committing fraud.)


kindlekitten - The line I quoted gives them the right to do so. I'd try reading it rather than posting the entire agreement, which not relevant to the point: It does not modify the meaning of the sentence at all, and hence I question why you posted it.

You don't think it's important. Fine. Then why the heck are you trying to make it out that it's not important to anyone, when there are issues which more than a few people here have pointed DO matter to them, to the degree of affecting their purchasing decisions.

It's selfish and short sighted of you to demand that everyone see things your way on the matter.

Last edited by DawnFalcon; 03-23-2010 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaughnmr View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me, but I suggest you look into what actually happened. One of the big issues was the loss of someone's annotations that were also removed when the book "1984" was deleted due to copyright violations (unknown to Amazon at the time they sold it), and that resulted in a lawsuit against Amazon. After that, I think that all e-book sellers tightened up their actions.

Kindlekitten, you won't get thru to these people, they can't hear thru tinfoil.
yeah I know, can't blame a girl for trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud. And I am of the strong opinion that such cases should be prosecuted in the public interest. A few tens of millions of pounds of fines to demonstrate that would not go amiss, afaik.

(To be clear, I have very little tolerance for any corporation committing fraud.)


kindlekitten - The line I quoted gives them the right to do so. I'd try reading it rather than posting the entire agreement, which not relevant to the point: It does not modify the meaning of the sentence at all, and hence I question why you posted it.

You don't think it's important. Fine. Then why the heck are you trying to make it out that it's not important to anyone, when there are issues which more than a few people here have pointed DO matter to them, to the degree of affecting their purchasing decisions.

It's selfish and short sighted of you to demand that everyone see things your way on the matter.
I have read it. several times. it does NOT say what you are implying.
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:52 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ben Thornton View Post
That does look mostly harmless, to be honest.

My gripes with a Kindle would be device lock-in, lack of folder support and no touch screen - this doesn't look like much of an issue compared to those.
+1

I like a bit of privacy as much as the next person - I live in the middle of a treed 5 acre block, and I have a No Junk Mail sign on the mailbox. But I also like to try and keep some perspective and balance about these things.


Every time I'm in public, people are making snap judgements about me based on the data they gather. It's an unavoidable part of life. They'll use the way I look, my age, how I'm dressed, my ethnicity, the car I drive, what my voice sounds live and so on. And I do the same to them. The judgements can be wrong, but for the most part the consequences aren't much of a big deal. Nor are they usually irreversible.


Companies tend to write the sort of stuff that we're talking about here for two major reasons:

1) To protect their own back-sides from litigation. This can come from the oddest of angles, so the wording tends to be pretty broad.

2) For commercial reasons. This can take a few forms but mostly it means building a customer data base in order to try and sell them more stuff. Properly done this is cheaper and more effective than paying for blanket ads that reach millions of people who won't ever be interested anyway.


The point here is that I'm not giving Amazon permission to search my house or use my Kindle for some unspecified malicious purposes. There's no commercial advantage in them pissing me off, and what are they going to do? Threaten to tell the blokes at the pub that they found a Jane Austen book on my Kindle and blackmail me for their silence? Start a separate site to publish all the lamest and weirdest things they found on a Kindle? There's also no mileage for them in doing this 'hands on' - the price of wages would far outweigh any possible extra sales - it could only be done cost-effectively by mashing the data through a program that tried to pick what you might like to buy next.

I actually LIKE them to make suggestions on what I might like to look at, based on my prior record. One of the downsides of the hundreds of thousands of titles online is the difficultly in ploughing through it all in search of fresh material. If they can help, then I'd say THANK YOU! If I don't like their suggestions I just ignore them.

Suit me anyway.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:11 PM   #68
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These are also from the Amazon Kindle site:

Browsing History

Quote:
Your Browsing History is meant to help you keep track of some of the items you've recently viewed, searches you've recently made, and product categories you've recently visited.

If you do not enjoy this feature and want to turn it off, simply click Turn Off Browsing History in the box to the left. Turning this feature off will turn it off for anyone who uses your Web browser. If you'd like to re-enable Your Browsing History for your browser, return to this page and click the Turn On Browsing History button that will appear.
Advertising

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Amazon strives to give you choices about how information about you is collected and used. This feature allows you to choose not to see personalized advertisements on Amazon.com or personalized Amazon ads on other websites. It also allows you to choose not to have certain information about you collected from websites other than Amazon.com and its affiliated sites. For more details about these choices, please read on.
That all seems reasonable and rational to me. "Personalising" seems like trying to get a handle on what I'm likely to respond to, and attempting to minimise wasting both their time and mine by pushing stuff I'm not likely to want.

It doesn't feel like they're 'spying' on me in any way that I should fear. The 'attention' they're paying me might be phoney and computerised - with all the depth of a "Have a nice day!" at the checkout - but I really can't seem to work up any indignation about it.

Chris
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:19 PM   #69
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the tinfoil hat crowd are convinced that Amazon is going to pull a big brother and pull any ill gotten acquisitions from their Kindles willy nilly. *sigh*
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:27 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindlekitten View Post

Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.
Dude, he's actually right, this is the relevant paragraph. Basically it is giving examples of the content of data being sent back to Amazon, but is not limited to those listed. In short Amazon can collect any data from your Kindle that they see fit. Got a law document on there and am making notes in relation to a case?...they can take that.

The bit I especially like in the document is;

Quote:
No Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, Disassembly or Circumvention. You may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, modify, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Device or the Software, whether in whole or in part, create any derivative works from or of the Software, or bypass, modify, defeat or tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Device or Software or any mechanisms operatively linked to the Software, including, but not limited to, augmenting or substituting any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software.
You breach the terms and conditions of sale if you open it up and replace your own damn battery. Amazon are well within their rights to suspend your service if you do not use Amazon to replace your battery, even for an out of warranty unit.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:28 PM   #71
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I have read it. several times. it does NOT say what you are implying.
I am not implying, I am stating. Because it is plain English, and it is perfectly plain. I'm sorry, but your invocation of the insanity defence really isn't helping my case that you're simply demanding everyone view this your way.

And yes, I'm sure your brave tinfoil brigade which you are leading so valiently is claiming that. Once more, I have never claimed so - I have repeatedly stated otherwise. What I am saying, once again, in the futile hope that you will read this time rather than dismissing anything I type as contrary to your ideology, is that it is permitted by the agreement, rather than that Amazon are currently doing any such thing or have plans thereunto.

However, this doesn't excuse the overly broad policy, which should be corrected to make it plain the limits Amazon will restrict themselves to. That would, as this thread shows, gain them customers.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:24 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindlekitten View Post
the tinfoil hat crowd are convinced that Amazon is going to pull a big brother and pull any ill gotten acquisitions from their Kindles willy nilly. *sigh*

Interesting point. Some copyright holders would probably be pleased if they did. I wonder how it stands up though?


Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that Amazon/Kindle are booksellers rather than publishers. Middle-men in other words. If I was running Amazon, these would be two of my objectives:

1) Maximise the sales of books. I’d certainly try to do this by trying to match my pitches to the reader’s likely preferences.

2) Minimise any problems with the publishers and authors who supply the content.

With regard to the second point, I really wouldn’t want to waste a lot of time and resources on acting as unpaid policeman or nanny for all the other parties. However, I would want to protect myself from allegations by my suppliers that I’d failed to take reasonable steps to shield their property from theft. I’d be especially cautious about being left open to charges that I had facilitated rip offs - even unintentionally.


A case recent went through the Australian courts in which a group of very powerful movie interests sued a local ISP for failing to stop some of their subscribers from using the Internet to illegally download copies of movies. They weren’t accusing them of providing the software or sites - just of failing to prevent that kind of traffic via their network. A big demand.


So I still can’t really see anything in this but Amazon attempting to steer a prudent line between their suppliers and their customers. I don’t imagine that they would themselves want to get involved with deciding what content was ‘illegal’ and deleting it, and would probably resist pressure from publishers to actively behave as their police force.

However, my guess is that they would want to keep firm control over how many devices you can download your book to. If they didn’t then you could simply get all your mates to hook up to your account and download dozens of copies onto multiple devices (I currently have 3 devices authorised - none of which are an actual Kindle - they are 2 PCs and an iTouch ). So ‘electronic surveillance’ of the books you got from them seems inevitable (and reasonable enough). My understanding is that the publishers themselves set down how many devices they allow you to ‘authorise’ and may limit how many times you can freely re-download before it cuts out (at which point you can give a reason and apply for it to be extended). I don’t know if this is up-to-date or if it varies much between publishers and selling sites.

Would they really want to open such a controversial can of worms by wiping stuff? I doubt it. I don’t imagine they’d really want to get involved in policing anything other than the e-books they had already sold to us.

That’s my guess anyway.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:29 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud.....
I'd be interested in hearing why you believe the term "theft" fits with regards to the mentioned case.

Cheers,
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:39 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solicitous View Post
Dude, he's actually right, this is the relevant paragraph. Basically it is giving examples of the content of data being sent back to Amazon, but is not limited to those listed. In short Amazon can collect any data from your Kindle that they see fit. Got a law document on there and am making notes in relation to a case?...they can take that.

The bit I especially like in the document is;



You breach the terms and conditions of sale if you open it up and replace your own damn battery. Amazon are well within their rights to suspend your service if you do not use Amazon to replace your battery, even for an out of warranty unit.
d00d; this is THE paragraph that needs to be paid attention to;

[I]Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.[/I]

they are NOT reading everyone's Kindles! basically what they can do is send a sort of digital handshake to items obtained from Amazon. other than that they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE!!! what it is!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
I am not implying, I am stating. Because it is plain English, and it is perfectly plain. I'm sorry, but your invocation of the insanity defence really isn't helping my case that you're simply demanding everyone view this your way.

And yes, I'm sure your brave tinfoil brigade which you are leading so valiently is claiming that. Once more, I have never claimed so - I have repeatedly stated otherwise. What I am saying, once again, in the futile hope that you will read this time rather than dismissing anything I type as contrary to your ideology, is that it is permitted by the agreement, rather than that Amazon are currently doing any such thing or have plans thereunto.

However, this doesn't excuse the overly broad policy, which should be corrected to make it plain the limits Amazon will restrict themselves to. That would, as this thread shows, gain them customers.
I forgot this the idiot that renames himself whenever he has an argument with someone. he's what makes pig wrasslin' so attractive. carry on with your tin foil

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC333 View Post
Interesting point. Some copyright holders would probably be pleased if they did. I wonder how it stands up though?


Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that Amazon/Kindle are booksellers rather than publishers. Middle-men in other words. If I was running Amazon, these would be two of my objectives:

1) Maximise the sales of books. I’d certainly try to do this by trying to match my pitches to the reader’s likely preferences.

2) Minimise any problems with the publishers and authors who supply the content.

With regard to the second point, I really wouldn’t want to waste a lot of time and resources on acting as unpaid policeman or nanny for all the other parties. However, I would want to protect myself from allegations by my suppliers that I’d failed to take reasonable steps to shield their property from theft. I’d be especially cautious about being left open to charges that I had facilitated rip offs - even unintentionally.


A case recent went through the Australian courts in which a group of very powerful movie interests sued a local ISP for failing to stop some of their subscribers from using the Internet to illegally download copies of movies. They weren’t accusing them of providing the software or sites - just of failing to prevent that kind of traffic via their network. A big demand.


So I still can’t really see anything in this but Amazon attempting to steer a prudent line between their suppliers and their customers. I don’t imagine that they would themselves want to get involved with deciding what content was ‘illegal’ and deleting it, and would probably resist pressure from publishers to actively behave as their police force.

However, my guess is that they would want to keep firm control over how many devices you can download your book to. If they didn’t then you could simply get all your mates to hook up to your account and download dozens of copies onto multiple devices (I currently have 3 devices authorised - none of which are an actual Kindle - they are 2 PCs and an iTouch ). So ‘electronic surveillance’ of the books you got from them seems inevitable (and reasonable enough). My understanding is that the publishers themselves set down how many devices they allow you to ‘authorise’ and may limit how many times you can freely re-download before it cuts out (at which point you can give a reason and apply for it to be extended). I don’t know if this is up-to-date or if it varies much between publishers and selling sites.

Would they really want to open such a controversial can of worms by wiping stuff? I doubt it. I don’t imagine they’d really want to get involved in policing anything other than the e-books they had already sold to us.

That’s my guess anyway.
unless someone can make a case that Amazon helped steal content through their negligence, this just isn't going to be an issue. they can't read through all of our Kindles. among other things, Hollywood is using them extensively for scripts. Amazon wouldn't be allowed to get into them. I've loaded sensitive work related PDFs on them. damn straight the Army would have had my ass by now if they thought they were being looked at
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:40 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
The use of the phrase 'such as' would give me pause - they're only giving you part of the picture.
No. They are covering their back in case they have changes to the software and it adds some minor data.

BTW, this seems innocent enough to me and I have no objection to it. Of course I don't automatically assume that everything is a conspiracy and that they are out to get you.
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