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Old 03-08-2010, 07:30 AM   #46
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@ Marcy: I totally understand your point, but I have two reasons for you, why you should by a legal version anyway if it ever comes out:
If the books are worthwhile putting so much effort into them as you did, than it is worthwhile supporting the author, so that he might wright more of such good books.
Justifying piracy just because a product one wants to by is not available jet is not so fare from justifying piracy because a product is too expensive in ones opinion. I think, from the point of view of the author it stays plain piracy.
Don't missunanderstand my: my favorit book is not out as a ebook as well. If I had the chance, I might do, just as you did. But I would not count my effort I put into a book that I got illigaly to count for making it legal in any way.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:48 AM   #47
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:58 AM   #48
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I agree with Ilkyway, Marcy. I, like many of us here, had pirated copies of LOTR and The Hobbit before they finally became available as ebooks, but I, and many others, bought the ebooks when they came out.

And Tolkien is dead - it would be all the better to buy the books of living authors.

Pirating a book when no legit copy is available doesn't really hurt anyone. Pirating a book when a legit copy is available does.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:44 AM   #49
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I will admit to having used this site, for books I wanted. These are books I *wanted* to give money to someone for and was unable to, because they are not available as ebooks. And they are all books I have bought pbook copies of.
Just a thought, but since you already own the pBook it is legal in the US to scan it yourself and make your own eBook. Is what you did really any different? The end result is the same.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:54 AM   #50
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Just a thought, but since you already own the pBook it is legal in the US to scan it yourself and make your own eBook. Is what you did really any different? The end result is the same.
The bad thing was to pay for it and get a bad edition. Much better to download one of the big science fiction book collections that are available without paying and contribute fixes back to these collections.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:30 AM   #51
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I agree with Ilkyway, Marcy. I, like many of us here, had pirated copies of LOTR and The Hobbit before they finally became available as ebooks, but I, and many others, bought the ebooks when they came out.

And Tolkien is dead - it would be all the better to buy the books of living authors.

Pirating a book when no legit copy is available doesn't really hurt anyone. Pirating a book when a legit copy is available does.
If I have a legitimately obtained paper copy, I hardly see the difference. If someone wants to save me the time of ripping my paper copy, I have no problem with that. The fact that the person is in Hong Kong and not in my living room is absolutely irrelevant from an ethical perspective.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore View Post
If I have a legitimately obtained paper copy, I hardly see the difference. If someone wants to save me the time of ripping my paper copy, I have no problem with that. The fact that the person is in Hong Kong and not in my living room is absolutely irrelevant from an ethical perspective.
You don't see any ethical difference between creating your own copy from a legitimately bought book, and accepting one from someone who's giving them out to all and sundry, regardless of whether or not they've bought the book?

Seems like a very different situation to me!
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:42 AM   #53
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You don't see any ethical difference between creating your own copy from a legitimately bought book, and accepting one from someone who's giving them out to all and sundry, regardless of whether or not they've bought the book?

Seems like a very different situation to me!
For who?

Is the distributor justified... absolutely not. Nobody is saying they are.

But in this case can you say the downloader really did anything unethical? If they're legally allowed to scan their own, does it really matter where they get it from?
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:52 AM   #54
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The end result may be the same, but for me, yes, the origin of the material does matter.

It's the same as asking if there's any ethical difference between buying a bottle of Scotch in a supermarket, on which all the appropriate taxes have been paid, and buying the same brand at half the price from "a man in a pub", which has been smuggled from France, and on which UK taxes have not been paid. The end result is the same - you have a bottle of whisky - but one has been obtained legitimately and the other from an illicit source.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:03 PM   #55
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It's the same as asking if there's any ethical difference between buying a bottle of Scotch in a supermarket, on which all the appropriate taxes have been paid, and buying the same brand at half the price from "a man in a pub", which has been smuggled from France, and on which UK taxes have not been paid. The end result is the same - you have a bottle of whisky - but one has been obtained legitimately and the other from an illicit source.
Except, in this case, both are free and there are no taxes involved. As far as that is concerned, there is no difference between legitimately scanning your own eBook or downloading one that somebody else scanned. Neither is generating revenue for the rights holder, but in this specific example, they're not supposed to.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:08 PM   #56
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We must agree to differ, I'm afraid. For me, the origin matters. For others, it perhaps doesn't. That's fine by me.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:09 PM   #57
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The end result may be the same, but for me, yes, the origin of the material does matter.

It's the same as asking if there's any ethical difference between buying a bottle of Scotch in a supermarket, on which all the appropriate taxes have been paid, and buying the same brand at half the price from "a man in a pub", which has been smuggled from France, and on which UK taxes have not been paid. The end result is the same - you have a bottle of whisky - but one has been obtained legitimately and the other from an illicit source.
This doesn't seem the same to me as the case where you have a copy of the pbook and download a scanned copy. In the case of the dodgy booze (was that a Sherlock Holmes case?), you've not bought the content legitimately before, whereas with the book, you have.

It seems to me to be analagous to the case where you have a record on vinyl and download a copy of the mp3.

I acknowledge that scanning a book yourself and snarfing a copy off the 'tubes are different, but it seems to me that they're more alike than snarfing and dodgy-booze-buying.

OTOH, it does smell of hypocrisy to say that uploading is bad while downloading is perfectly fine. Is it wrong to download something whose uploading you feel is wrong? It seems to me that it probably is, so I would agree with you that the source matters - while disagreeing with your analogy.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:39 PM   #58
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You don't see any ethical difference between creating your own copy from a legitimately bought book, and accepting one from someone who's giving them out to all and sundry, regardless of whether or not they've bought the book?

Seems like a very different situation to me!
I agree. In the first case it really is format shifting for your own use. Whereas in the second it is obtaining what is clearly an illegal copy.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:44 PM   #59
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Well, but if you compare one has a venyl and downloads a copy of mp3 seems a very different case for me. It maybe because I am expereanced in making anything that has a sound and that I owe into mp3. But I have no clue how to turn a book that I own in an ebook. As far as I understand the process of making an ebook there is much more work to do. And the original might get hurt in the process, or am I wrong here?

And I agree with HarryT regarding the matter of the origin. With copyright that seems to be all that matters. If you produce something of value this should be respected. Because that is not naturaly the case with all people there is the low considering the copyright. But apart from that law: Creating something worse while reading or listening to should be honored because this is much more diffecult than copying. And it should have a fair price.

But that are just my two cents and Marcy as I understood it, asked if her opinion might be seen different by some of us.
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Old 03-08-2010, 01:30 PM   #60
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Why not mention the site, so people can get some honest feedback...?

I'm a member of a parrot site, and there are many illegal importers of parrots, and some people think they get a good deal... But these sites are mentioned on the forum.. If you find a Sulphur Crested Cockatoo for sale in America, you can be sure it's been illegally imported.


But, Sulphur Cresteds are fairly common in American aviculture. Their parents or grandparents *may* have been illegally imported, but many if not most were legally aquired (note there is a difference between "legally" and "humanely" or "environmentally wisely") before the various exportation and trade restrictions took effect. Australia exported its wildlife for some decades before it shut the door, and the US had process for legal quarantine and import. Wild caught birds can no longer be traded, but captive-bred ones can.

USDA is actually pretty darn tight at enforcing bird importation laws, particularly with the whole Avian Influenza thing. There are some other avian diseases that can be transmitted to poultry, so enforcement is a higher financial priority with birds than it is for, say, lizards. The vast majority of Sulphur Cresteds and other exotic birds on the market here really are legal captive-breds.

Interestingly, some species like Rose Breasted/Galah 'toos are pretty rare here, because for whatever reason there weren't many of them imported before the crackdown (despite the teeming thousands that apparently plague farmers in parts of Australia), therefore there aren't many breeding pairs to generate chicks to put on the market. Moluccans, which are highly endangered in the wild, are much more common and are relatively inexpensive. Heck, you can get 'em free from rescue groups once their previous owner discovers they don't like living with a three year old child that carries an air horn and a pair of pliers with them at all times.
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