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Old 03-16-2010, 05:30 PM   #376
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No Kenny, many criminals, unless they have certain types of personality disorder, know the difference between right and wrong and know what they're doing is wrong. Many don't care, but that's different from believing what they're doing is right.
...
Then by definition it is "right" in their eyes or they wouldn't do it. End of story.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:31 PM   #377
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Bilbo1967 - Thanks for recognising that you are. It's always good when a malefactor owns up to being self-centred.
Aren't you up a little late on a school night? My seven year old realised last year that the old "I know you are, but what am I?" type response was a bit immature.

Given that you are obsessive about divulging personal data, can I ask WTF you are doing on a discussion forum? In your last few posts I can see that you dislike the BNP, that you have been attacked in the past (possibly by skinheads), that you live in the Midlands of the UK but north of Solihull, that you have little to no grasp of logic and that you have clearly been drinking quite heavily this evening.

The only way to preserve your self professed prized privacy would be to go away and shut up. It would also make me very happy as well.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:32 PM   #378
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I don't think one needs to committed to absolutes if that means counting out on principal the possibility that certain acts can ever be morally justified. In all the circumstance that have arisen and might realistically arise I would say that genocide, for example, is immoral. I am not thereby committed to saying that in any circumstances whatever genocide would be immoral - I do though find it difficult to imagine circumstances in which it wouldn't be. However, that may be a limitation of my imagination, not something that has to do with the absolute nature of, in this example, genocide.
If you are not committed to absolutes then you back to you-said, I-said. No one's right is any more right then any other.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:35 PM   #379
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Don'tch'all just love these pirate conversations??
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:35 PM   #380
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Again, only true if you believe in absolutes of right and wrong. It doesn't matter what the act or behavior is, the law of society (whether written down or not) is what determines what is right or wrong based on the morals and ethics of that society.

It's no different than what I said about criminals -- for them (individually) what they do is right to them.
I don't believe in absolutes of right or wrong. So, I agree with you to some extent, in that it was right for people to keep slaves in certain historical contexts from their point of view - i.e. they saw it as right. We see it as wrong, from our point of view, because we don't share the outlook of their society (perhaps we see the slaves as equally human and they didn't, for example).

However, I don't agree that the majority view is synonymous with morality. Each of us has a moral outlook which, although shaped by society, may deviate from or even oppose its views. So, I think it makes sense to say that "people think X is OK, but it's wrong" even if the majority think that X is not wrong. So, "people think that copyright infringement is OK, but it's wrong" would make sense even if the prevailing view was that is was, in fact, OK.

Also, there are constants across human societies due to our common biology. Much of the moral shift has been in defining what counts as the in-group and out-group, as opposed to what counts as appropriate behaviour towards each. So, although there are no absolutes "out there" inscribed in the fabric of the universe, human biology constitutes a kind of absolute (or a slowly evolving absolute, perhaps) that constrains the moral positions that are adopted.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:36 PM   #381
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It's no different than what I said about criminals -- for them (individually) what they do is right to them.
One has to allow for the Platonic notion of incontinence. This has got nothing to do with peeing in your bed but is to do with doing those things that one knows to be wrong and not doing those things that one knows to be right. It seems to be quite a common human trait.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:37 PM   #382
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Don'tch'all just love these pirate conversations??
So, when did you last visit Somalia?
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:38 PM   #383
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One has to allow for the Platonic notion of incontinence. This has got nothing to do with peeing in your bed but is to do with doing those things that one knows to be wrong and not doing those things that one knows to be right. It seems to be quite a common human trait.
What? Pirates are bed-wetters???
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:40 PM   #384
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So, when did you last visit Somalia?
Sorry I don't divulge personal itineraries.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:42 PM   #385
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Sorry I don't divulge personal itineraries.
Fair enough, I'll just check BBC news then. Hm, no, no ships grabbed today..
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:43 PM   #386
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One has to allow for the Platonic notion of incontinence. This has got nothing to do with peeing in your bed but is to do with doing those things that one knows to be wrong and not doing those things that one knows to be right. It seems to be quite a common human trait.
You're right - we wouldn't have the emotion of guilt if we always thought that what we'd done is right.

Kenny seems to be suggesting that no criminal is guilty
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:45 PM   #387
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That's actually a fairly good way of separating out the types of crime I mentioned: Most pot smokers and IP infringers don't feel guilt for their actions, for a bank robber, well...
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:51 PM   #388
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This is only true if you believe in absolutes of right and wrong -- which I've been accused of, but is not true.
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If you are not committed to absolutes then you back to you-said, I-said. No one's right is any more right then any other.
So, how are we to decide on the moral status of human actions - and I mean those human actions which have a moral status, not ones like DRM stripping and unauthorized copying - about which most of the world couldn't give a monkey's chuff.

The only unconditional good is a good will perhaps.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:54 PM   #389
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What? Pirates are bed-wetters???
Sorry, I don't divulge personal medical information.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:57 PM   #390
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I think that, at last, this thread has finally finished the "piracy is theft" debate. Here's my air-tight logical argument:

A: copyright infringement is theft
B: theft is a crime
C: therefore, copyright infringement is a crime
D: all criminals think that what they do is right
E: people only feel guilt when they think that what they do is not-right
F: therefore, all criminals are not guilty
G: therefore, copyright infringers are not guilty
H: people who are not guilty are not criminals
I: therefore, copyright infringers are not criminals
J: which is a contradiction compared to C

Any assertion that leads to a contradiction is false.
Therefore, copyright infringement is not theft
QED.

Thank goodness for that.

What are you reading?
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