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Old 09-04-2006, 01:33 PM   #16
rlauzon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_k
So if I would think like you, PGP must be insecure cause the algoryhtms are well known and open-source. Anyone knows the times it would take to crack PGP-keys with a (as of now) secure algorythm? If I remember right, it would take quite a long time.
You need to re-read my message. I said that you get the lock design and key in an open source solution.

The application needs to have the key so that it unlock the content to display to the user. Since the application is open source, the key is available for anyone to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b_k
For the "how we treat customers"-thing I think the same way.
But I think it would not be impossible to develop a open source (=portable), user-friendly (=resell the drm-ed content) and secure DRM. To bad that is simply not what the book/drm-software publishers want.
I've given this alot of thought and PGP played a good part of it.

Given:
1. Public key crypto is pretty darn secure.
2. The purpose of DRM is to prevent someone from doing something with the content that is not approved by the copyright holder (ignoring that copyright holders don't legally have this authority).

Attempt 1:
The author encrypts the content with a public key. The reader then uses a private key to decrypt the content to display to the user.
- Problem: since the solution is open source, the private key is not secret. So anyone can create a DRM-removal program.

Attempt 2:
When you buy the eBook, you provide your public key. This is used to encrypt the eBook. You provide the private key to the reader to see the content.
- Same problem. You have the key to unlock the content. No security.

Attempt 3:
The author signs the eBook with his private key and encrypts with your public key when you purchase the eBook. You get the author's public key when buying the book.
- Still the same problem. The only benefit you get is that no one can edit the eBook and re-sell it because they cannot re-sign it, not having the author's private key.

So no matter what you do, if the DRM is open source, you, the attacker, have access to the algorithm and the key to unlock the content. The only way that DRM can work is for the reader to be closed and proprietary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b_k
I as customer would like to see a fair and portable solution which does not lock me to one device/os/vendor, but again thats not what the industry wants.
And that's yet another problem.
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Old 09-04-2006, 01:54 PM   #17
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after some rethinking:

forget it. any DRM that's working from a publishers point of view would not be one that I would like, cause it will bind you to a specific combination of vendor, os/software and hardware (I think I am not the only one). I don't want to rent my books (well except the ones from the library). I have books in the bookshelf, from when i was 10 years younger, looking at the development in the IT world (and having seen hardware dieing often enough), I don't really want DRM.

I just hope the publishers will realise this soon enough.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:25 AM   #18
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Ron, do you have any investment bank friends? Maybe you can arrange for secret buyouts of all the large publishers, and then use your agents to enforce your anti-DRM policy. Look, this is my my dream, too. But it ain't gonna happen. Moreover, don't look for a major consumer-friendly change in the copyright laws for that. Washington, alas, is too Hollywoodized. The real fantasy isn't OpenReader but the thought that modern classics will be legally available in the near future without DRM. Finally--yet another reminder: DRM will be an OPTION for publishers using OpenReader. As for OpenReader's other features, I'd remind you that interbook deep linking and shared annotations aren't exactly commonplace among today's e-book-oriented formats. Thanks! David
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:29 AM   #19
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BK, I don't want DRM, either. But it isn't going away soon--either in the States or Germany. What can be done is to make it as gentle as possible on readers and, yes, pay attention to the issue of longer-term access (which we intend to do). David
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:50 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrothman
But it ain't gonna happen.
It already has started to happen. But like the dinosaurs, the big publishers don't want to adapt.

I really could care less whether the big publishers change or not. In the eBook market, publishers are irrelevant. They provide little business value for eBooks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrothman
The real fantasy isn't OpenReader but the thought that modern classics will be legally available in the near future without DRM.
Since they are already available illegally, the publishers have no choice in the matter. They will make them legally available or fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrothman
Finally--yet another reminder: DRM will be an OPTION for publishers using OpenReader.
Ya, so? I've never said anything to the contrary.

What I've said is that Open Source DRM cannot exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrothman
As for OpenReader's other features, I'd remind you that interbook deep linking and shared annotations aren't exactly commonplace among today's e-book-oriented formats.
And are not in demand.
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Old 09-05-2006, 03:19 PM   #21
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It may be true that drm is not going away soon, but that will be sufficient for commercial ebooks to remain an insignificant percentage (under 1%) of the book market. Even if drm goes away there remains the issue of pricing for ebooks; we need a very large supply of easily accesible very cheap or free ebooks for takeoff. I think that these 2 conditions (good drm-free open format and large supply of free/cheap content) are neccesary for commercial ebooks to take off.

Liviu


Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrothman
BK, I don't want DRM, either. But it isn't going away soon--either in the States or Germany. What can be done is to make it as gentle as possible on readers and, yes, pay attention to the issue of longer-term access (which we intend to do). David
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:23 PM   #22
rlauzon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liviu_5
It may be true that drm is not going away soon, but that will be sufficient for commercial ebooks to remain an insignificant percentage (under 1%) of the book market. Even if drm goes away there remains the issue of pricing for ebooks; we need a very large supply of easily accesible very cheap or free ebooks for takeoff. I think that these 2 conditions (good drm-free open format and large supply of free/cheap content) are neccesary for commercial ebooks to take off.
Project Gutenberg (Manybooks.net does a very good job of converting them to many eBook formats if you don't want to "roll your own").
Fictionwise offers many good books for reasonable prices.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head but there are more.

Then you have independant authors who make their books available through their web sites.

And that doesn't include the sources where you can get "unofficial" eBook versions of pBooks.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:38 PM   #23
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I completely agree with the quote below, but the (legal) books there do not constitute a critical mass in my opinion. We need far more ebooks. Now if you would count the huge underground servers, well maybe we will be closing to that critical mass, though even with those we would missing a lot. What I am wishing is to have (almost) all fiction published in english (and other major languages of course) say before 1996 just to put an arbitray cutoff date on backlist as very cheap drm-free ebooks and then we talk...

Liviu

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlauzon
Project Gutenberg (Manybooks.net does a very good job of converting them to many eBook formats if you don't want to "roll your own").
Fictionwise offers many good books for reasonable prices.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head but there are more.

Then you have independant authors who make their books available through their web sites.

And that doesn't include the sources where you can get "unofficial" eBook versions of pBooks.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:39 AM   #24
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The problem is not necessarily that DRM exists. People will move around it like pedestrians around a dog stain.
The real issue is that they want to force us to walk through it, meaning that the machine is built for and controlled by software that strongly suggests we adhere to DRM consumption.
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:01 PM   #25
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Liviu: Actually I think there's enough authors and free legal books out there to keep people happy.

The problem is that they are created via blogging software and other tools specific to web content. This web/wiki content doesn't have the semantic richness of TEI-Lite (for example). We need better ways to import content from RSS feeds and weblog software.

Whatever standard becomes dominant, I still don't see any easy solution for web-created content. Whatever standard emerges, I'd like to see open source web XML solutions better than what we have today.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jswinden
I've never seen open source on any major technology work out for consumers. I know folks like to point to Linux and show how successful it is.
How about Firefox? In actual fact there are a bunch of open source programs out there. Document standards are *almost* trivial as far as open sourcing goes. All you have to do is setup a standard, and then anyone (big business, open sourcer, whatever) can make a program that can read that standard. A document standard is just a fixed way of storing information -- for books that's font, formatting, text, etc. Nothing that fancy or complicated like an operating system. You'll find a lot more success stories on the small open source things like programs, since those are easier for anyone to use.

As for a reflowable document standard....that would be nice, but it is too bad there aren't any OCR readers on the market that deal with mathematics well. I'd like to scan my science books and use them on an ereader, but I couldn't make them very reflowable, unfortunately.

-Drachasor
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Old 09-07-2006, 06:29 AM   #27
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"JORGEN: "What the world needs is less people making standards." Exactly. Let's have trains run on different gauges and electricity being AC or DC, depending on whether in your home or your neighbors."

You are the one adding yet another standard.
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Old 09-07-2006, 10:44 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorgen
"JORGEN: "What the world needs is less people making standards." Exactly. Let's have trains run on different gauges and electricity being AC or DC, depending on whether in your home or your neighbors."

You are the one adding yet another standard.
He didn't say fewer standards, he said fewer people making them.

As you point out, Jorgen, too many standards for things (trains, electricity, e-books, etc.) gets to be a massive pain in the sitter-downer real quick!

I think what he may be trying to say is that if fewer people set up these types of standards, there will be fewer standards to have to fuss with.
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Old 09-07-2006, 03:53 PM   #29
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Exactly, NatCh. We have plenty of standards already and now come yet another standard that promise to save the world. I am well-bewandered in the purpose of standards, having postgraduate degrees in Law and Computer Science and taught the latter at a university for a decade. In computing, I have seen languages that promised to be the last relevant: Ada, Eiffel, C++, Java, C## and what do you know: the only language that is forever is good old C. Likewise, HTML has been around for a long time and while it is not good, it works. We want ebooks in HTML so we can move to whatever hardware we like. It will probably take a while, but I think we will eventually get there.
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Old 09-07-2006, 05:24 PM   #30
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Question OEB Reader for e-Ink?

I have a semi-random question for David Rothman: can you tell us if there is an OpenReader variant in the works for any e-ink based, Linux OS reading devices?
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