Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Uploads - Patricia Clark Memorial Library > Upload Help

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-23-2010, 03:54 PM   #1
jimmyrules712
Member
jimmyrules712 began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 10
Karma: 40
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Nook
Question on copywrite law...

If someone would fill me in on this I would be appreciative. (I'm in the USA by the way)

If I own (legally paid for) a physical book is it legal for me to scan it into a digital file for my personal use?

If the answer to that was yes; once again if I bought a physical book can I legally use a digital copy scanned by someone else?

Is a physical book and a digital version of the same book looked at like the same thing (such as CDs/mp3 files with music) or is it considered necessary to pay for both seperately if you want both.

I'm not trying to get justification for piracy, I fully intend to buy all of my books, I'm just trying to decide if it's right that we should have to rebuy books we have already paid money for just to get a different medium.
jimmyrules712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 03:13 AM   #2
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 63,423
Karma: 41542799
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyrules712 View Post
If someone would fill me in on this I would be appreciative. (I'm in the USA by the way)
Let's start off by getting the name correct - it is copyright law, not copywrite - it's a law concerned with the right to copy a work.

Quote:
If I own (legally paid for) a physical book is it legal for me to scan it into a digital file for my personal use?
Yes. This would be considered "fair use" under US copyright law.

Quote:
If the answer to that was yes; once again if I bought a physical book can I legally use a digital copy scanned by someone else?
No, you can't. Making a "fair use" copy is a strictly personal thing. That copy cannot be given away to someone else, even if they themselves own a copy of the book.

Quote:
Is a physical book and a digital version of the same book looked at like the same thing (such as CDs/mp3 files with music) or is it considered necessary to pay for both seperately if you want both.
You can make a digital copy yourself, but if you're asking if you can download an illegal copy of a pirated eBook merely because you've bought the paper book, the answer is "no", any more than, say, buying a hardback version of a book entitles you to a free paperback.

Quote:
I'm not trying to get justification for piracy, I fully intend to buy all of my books, I'm just trying to decide if it's right that we should have to rebuy books we have already paid money for just to get a different medium.
It's for you to decide whether or not it's "right". All we can tell you here is whether or not it's "legal".
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 06:22 AM   #3
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,146
Karma: 4792399
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
No, you can't. Making a "fair use" copy is a strictly personal thing. That copy cannot be given away to someone else, even if they themselves own a copy of the book.
I'm not sure what's the situation in the US. Here in Spain I believe it would not be illegal to download the "personal copies" (of works you own or don't). It would be illegal to upload (distribute) them, but only if it is done for profit.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 07:43 AM   #4
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 63,423
Karma: 41542799
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
I'm not sure what's the situation in the US. Here in Spain I believe it would not be illegal to download the "personal copies" (of works you own or don't). It would be illegal to upload (distribute) them, but only if it is done for profit.
Downloading of copyrighted works for personal use is legal in Spain, I believe? It's not legal in the US (or the UK).
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 08:43 AM   #5
Terisa de morgan
Wizard
Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Terisa de morgan's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,228
Karma: 1958712
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Madrid, Spain
Device: Kobo Mini, iPhone, iPad, Kobo Aura, Galaxy Tab3 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
It would be illegal to upload (distribute) them, but only if it is done for profit.
Yes but... you upload an American ebook (according to American law, it's not legal) to an Chinese server (anyway) from Spain. Which law apply to the file? For you it's clear, in Spanish land the Spanish law, for file I'm not sure (I'm talking about keeping it uploaded in the server).
Terisa de morgan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 09:12 AM   #6
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,146
Karma: 4792399
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Downloading of copyrighted works for personal use is legal in Spain, I believe?
Last time I knew of that, it's probably not explicitly allowed, but it's not made illegal by any law or court ruling. Distributing copyrighted material for profit is illegal, just sharing or downloading is not. There was a recent sentence for someone who had distributed for profit, the reports I read of the case made it rather clear that it was the "for profit" part that made it possible. From Wikipedia:

The law explicitly allows to make private copies of copyrighted work without the author's consent for published works if the copy is not for commercial use. [...] Some consumer's associations and specialized lawyers contend that the current legislation allows file sharing (as with p2p networks) as this is not for profit and is for private use. Additionally, the Penal Code explicitly requires the intention of commercial profit in order to commit a crime against the Intellectual Property.

This is, as I said, Spanish law. US and UK laws will be different of course.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 09:57 AM   #7
jimmyrules712
Member
jimmyrules712 began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 10
Karma: 40
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Nook
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
You can make a digital copy yourself, but if you're asking if you can download an illegal copy of a pirated eBook merely because you've bought the paper book, the answer is "no", any more than, say, buying a hardback version of a book entitles you to a free paperback.
It's interesting to think about though...back in the non digital age when you bought something media related (book, music, movie, etc.) you were basically buying the physical medium as much as the right to enjoy that media. But now with how terms are worded that when we buy digital media like ebooks or music we are buying a 'license' to enjoy that media with no physical medium attached to it, wouldn't having that 'license' give us the legal right to use that media regardless of when medium it is on (ereader, PC, printed on paper, etc.)? If I buy an eBook I have the right to read it on an eReader, computer, or printed on paper don't I? Does that not go both ways? (buying the physical book giving the right to read it on paper or scan it and read it electronically). If it does how does the law distinguish (or care) between whether you made the digital copy of the work you bought or used a copy made by someone else (but you still did pay for a copy).

I'm not trying to step on toes here, just interested in having a logical discussion about it.
jimmyrules712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 11:43 AM   #8
jimmyrules712
Member
jimmyrules712 began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 10
Karma: 40
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: Nook
and I've just found this thread, so I'm going to continue the discussion there...

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74365
jimmyrules712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2010, 06:28 AM   #9
anabelee
Zealot
anabelee will become famous soon enoughanabelee will become famous soon enoughanabelee will become famous soon enoughanabelee will become famous soon enoughanabelee will become famous soon enoughanabelee will become famous soon enough
 
anabelee's Avatar
 
Posts: 114
Karma: 583
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vigo, Spain
Device: Woxter Scriba 150, pocketbook 360
Think about this: ISBN numbers are different for digital or paper books, so we can not consider them a "copy" of the paper book.
anabelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 05:51 PM   #10
TuxGirl
Zealot
TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.
 
Posts: 105
Karma: 8670
Join Date: Sep 2009
Device: kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyrules712 View Post
It's interesting to think about though...back in the non digital age when you bought something media related (book, music, movie, etc.) you were basically buying the physical medium as much as the right to enjoy that media. But now with how terms are worded that when we buy digital media like ebooks or music we are buying a 'license' to enjoy that media with no physical medium attached to it, wouldn't having that 'license' give us the legal right to use that media regardless of when medium it is on (ereader, PC, printed on paper, etc.)? If I buy an eBook I have the right to read it on an eReader, computer, or printed on paper don't I? Does that not go both ways? (buying the physical book giving the right to read it on paper or scan it and read it electronically). If it does how does the law distinguish (or care) between whether you made the digital copy of the work you bought or used a copy made by someone else (but you still did pay for a copy).

I'm not trying to step on toes here, just interested in having a logical discussion about it.
nope. you actually often don't have the legal right to print it out. You don't have the legal right to do anything that is not allowed by the license.

Now, with the DMCA, there are things that you likely think you should be able to do which you can't actually do (according to my understanding of the law). The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent DRM regardless of the reason behind the circumvention. If there's DRM on an ebook, you cannot legally convert it to a different format because in so doing you would need to circumvent the DRM.
TuxGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2010, 07:48 PM   #11
Elfwreck
Grand Sorcerer
Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Elfwreck's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,142
Karma: 24387938
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Clié; PRS-505; EZR Pocket Pro, PRS-600, Kobo Mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxGirl View Post
nope. you actually often don't have the legal right to print it out. You don't have the legal right to do anything that is not allowed by the license.

Now, with the DMCA, there are things that you likely think you should be able to do which you can't actually do (according to my understanding of the law). The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent DRM regardless of the reason behind the circumvention. If there's DRM on an ebook, you cannot legally convert it to a different format because in so doing you would need to circumvent the DRM.
It's debatable. If the use you want is allowable by copyright law--within the range of fair use, or complete copying of a book that's in the public domain--the digital millennium *copyright* act doesn't come into play. If no "digital rights" apply to the book (or your use of it), then whatever software is preventing its use isn't technically DRM.

(Warning: IANAL. I suggest consulting one--a *good* one, with a lot of experience in copyfight activism--before attempting this argument in court.)

Also, of course, people not in the US are not subject to the DMCA.
Elfwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2010, 06:08 PM   #12
Logseman
じゃんぬねっ
Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Logseman's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,939
Karma: 1027561
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tenerife
Device: bq Cervantes Touch Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by anabelee View Post
Think about this: ISBN numbers are different for digital or paper books, so we can not consider them a "copy" of the paper book.
Not only are they different between digital and paper format, but between digital formats. An eBook in ePub and in Mobi would require 2 ISBN's for the same content.
Logseman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2010, 06:14 PM   #13
Logseman
じゃんぬねっ
Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Logseman ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Logseman's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,939
Karma: 1027561
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tenerife
Device: bq Cervantes Touch Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Downloading of copyrighted works for personal use is legal in Spain, I believe? It's not legal in the US (or the UK).
A recent ruling has been established in that sense. It must be pointed out that Spain is very permissive of "digital piracy" and the organisations who combat it are very impopular. Our local RIAA is easily one of the few things that unites all Spaniards in contempt and repulse. Of course, suing for royalties in donated works for which the author himself gave up his rights, or for the use of music in charity festivals may have something to do with that hatred... Go figure
Logseman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 01:14 AM   #14
TuxGirl
Zealot
TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.TuxGirl shines like a glazed doughnut.
 
Posts: 105
Karma: 8670
Join Date: Sep 2009
Device: kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
It's debatable. If the use you want is allowable by copyright law--within the range of fair use, or complete copying of a book that's in the public domain--the digital millennium *copyright* act doesn't come into play. If no "digital rights" apply to the book (or your use of it), then whatever software is preventing its use isn't technically DRM.

(Warning: IANAL. I suggest consulting one--a *good* one, with a lot of experience in copyfight activism--before attempting this argument in court.)

Also, of course, people not in the US are not subject to the DMCA.

IANAL either, but when I looked at the details of the DMCA, my understanding of it was that it prohibited *all* DRM circumvention unless explicitly allowed. The list of allowed exemptions is available on wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA#An...ion_exemptions, and there is more information here: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

From what I see here, personal use is not allowed. Now, as far as I understand, nobody has been prosecuted for removing DRM for personal use, but that does not mean that it's allowed.
TuxGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 12:00 PM   #15
Elfwreck
Grand Sorcerer
Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Elfwreck's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,142
Karma: 24387938
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Clié; PRS-505; EZR Pocket Pro, PRS-600, Kobo Mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxGirl View Post
IANAL either, but when I looked at the details of the DMCA, my understanding of it was that it prohibited *all* DRM circumvention unless explicitly allowed. The list of allowed exemptions is available on wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA#An...ion_exemptions, and there is more information here: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

From what I see here, personal use is not allowed. Now, as far as I understand, nobody has been prosecuted for removing DRM for personal use, but that does not mean that it's allowed.
DRM protects copyrighted material; removing DRM for acts that *are not a violation of copyright* should be fine.

Personal use & format shiftings are legally blurry; while the Sony Betamax case hinged on the right of people to record (format-shift) TV presentations for personal use, it wasn't quite officially codified as not-a-copyright-violation. (And there was no DRM in the way of those; nobody questioned whether the material was copyrighted.)

In the case of DRM locking a public-domain book, there's no copyright violation to hinge the DRM-removal crime on. In the case of DRM preventing fair use--that's less clear. Whether fair use is a special exemption to copyright law (and therefore wouldn't be allowed) or outside the scope of copyright law (and therefore should be) is debated by lawyers. (Is fair use an affirmative defense--I tresspassed on your property, but it's okay because I had a good enough reason?--or not part of the law--I didn't tresspass on your property at all; this is a legally-required easement?)

It's not likely to matter to ebooks, directly, which interpretation finally holds; the legal cases are going to be about music & videos.
Elfwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I got into law school! GERGE Lounge 18 08-15-2010 10:42 AM
Which one for law school? kellemonster Which one should I buy? 41 04-08-2010 02:08 PM
French Copyright Law Question ahi News 8 01-14-2010 03:25 PM
Seriously thoughtful count wolfram-alpha make copywrite laws worce ahammer Lounge 4 07-31-2009 01:01 PM
getting around copyright law sic Workshop 2 12-08-2006 03:56 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:15 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.