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Old 02-26-2010, 11:03 AM   #91
kennyc
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Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
I'd suggest you read up on moral rights, since you evidently by your post you simply don't understand them.
either that or add DF to your ignore list.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:02 PM   #92
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Never mind on this post... I'm constaly amazed at what I don't know...

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Old 02-26-2010, 01:09 PM   #93
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In the UK, the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

Summary of them here.

Essentially, I'm arguing that even if economic rights are sub-lifetime, moral rights (which, as you can see, are far more restricted) shouldn't be. This would require only minor legal adjustments* outside the USA...

(*Although I'm in favour of allowing them to the authors of computer programs as well)

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Old 02-26-2010, 01:15 PM   #94
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Yeah I hadn't realized that a body of law existed that actually defined some "moral rights"...

Until about 20 minutes ago, I'd been under the impression that was more a philosophical concept, not something actually defined in any sort of civil code...

Wild...
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:20 PM   #95
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If it were codified in law wouldn't that make it a legal right? I'm sorry but for me and I'm guessing a bunch of other Americans the idea is confusing. I mean satire commentary parody and criticism are fair use it, I wouldn't consider a protection form "derogatory treatment" to be reasonable for works under copyright as least not by my reading of that link.

The first part confuses me more since i wouldn't consider it necessary. I don't know the situation in the UK but copyright or not plagiarism is frowned on what someone uses another person's work outright they tend to say so or at least it's made clear (Rent being based on La Boheme) otherwise well they just plagiarize and i don't think any force of laws will change that anymore than university rules stop it from happening on campuses form time to time.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:33 PM   #96
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Actually, the USA is required by the Berne Convention to implement moral rights, and it's delinquent in not doing so (and American artists have had some cases tossed, at least in the UK, on that basis).

Parody and sarcasm are not "derogatory treatment". Breaking up a piece of artwork and selling the pieces separately or using a soviet composer's music in a virulently anti-soviet film is derogatory. Bluntly, it's the least important of the moral rights, and is very rarely invoked.

Attribution is the important one, and is very often overlooked in this day and age. Equally, the right to remove one's name if one wishes is important - indeed, even in America...well... seen any films by Alan Smithee?
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:55 AM   #97
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Attribution isn't something i have an issue with but the rest still sounds like censorship to me and I'd happily withdraw from any berne convention treaty obligations anyway since it requires life+50 of course there might be a way to compromise with full control to the author or anyone the author has assigned rights to for say 56 years and then statutory licensing as reasonable rates pegged to inflation for the rest of the copyright period. That would make old works free (libre) the real beauty behind the public domain but not free (gratis) for all the people who whine and bitch about authors deserving to be paid into infinity and it would cut the publishing industry off at the knees.
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:37 PM   #98
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Censorship? Not hardly. There's no central body controlling expression. Individual complaints against actions taken with their art isn't censorship.
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:41 PM   #99
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"Although you don't own the content, you own the package"

INCORRECT. you own the package and ANYTHING IT CONTAINS. Period. end of Discussion.

the words on that page belong to you. Period. now if you make a copy those NEW WORDS do not belong to you if you try to give them away (for free or for sale) because now you violate IPR. (intellectual property rights)

"As you note, you can't buy a used copy of software as you're buying a license."

this is total BS. you can not buy a used copy for ONE REASON only the store won't SELL used copies because it gives them a "apparently" valid excuse to force you to buy a NEW copy at full price. No other reason.

I do not recognize "license" for PPR purposes (personal Property Rights)

its mind to do with as I please and any license eula or agreement or contract is null voild invalid and 100% unenforceable. Period.

NOW once it goes beyond PPR to IPR now and ONLY NOW does that eula license or agreement come into play or have any power.

I will not deviate from this thought process. neither should you. the sooner enough of us think this way the sooner the laws change.

"And that is exactly at the core of it and what COPYRIGHT is about it has nothing to do with the physical item it's the RIGHT TO COPY, which is granted by law to the original creator of the item (whether a book, story, movie, music, ...)."

Patently false.

it has nothing to do with the RIGHT TO COPY. you COPY the book as you read it into the cells in your brain.

it has to do with control the DISTRIBUTION OF COPIES not any actual COPYING.

THIS is what copyright is supposed to be about. Nothing more. To prevent another publisher from making and selling copies. TO prevent someone from making a movie without your consent. To prevent someone from COPYING IT AND DISTRIBUTING IT without an agreement from you the author.

this is what copyright is and should and was about. Control over who profits from it even if the profit is ZERO. that control should reside with the AUTHOR ONLY.

once I lawfully (ie with permission) acquire a copy of a work that copy is now MY PROPERTY. anything I do to it with it under the guise of "MY PROPERTY" is my lawful right.

if I want to cut each word out of a paper book and glue it onto my walls in my home that is my lawful right its MY PROPERTY.

if I can to scan it into my computer. My property MY right. If I want to READ it into a tape recorder so I can play it back MY PROPERTY MY RIGHT.

NOW what about giving you a copy. Well now you have a problem. you see the moment i hand you a copy its now YOUR PROPERTY I created a NEW PROPERTY not my own.

THIS is where copyright comes into play and the ONLY TIME copyright should come into play. YOU did not have permission to have a copy of that content. I DID NOT have permission to GIVE you a copy of that content.

THIS is the difference between IPR AND PPR.

The contention that copying it should be illegal because it COULD RESULT in me giving a copy away is total BS and anyone with half a brain knows this.

you do NOT have my permission to take away my PPR because you THINK I might violate your IPR.

Otherwise Guns Knives and even so much as LEAVING YOUR HOUSE would be illegal because YOU COULD do something illegal.

BS.

"If I buy an e-book, I could strip the DRM, keep my copy and give it to multiple friends,"

Your kidding right? any idea how hard it is to SEPARATE the content from a paper book? HINT. NOT FREAKING HARD.

give me 1 hour with a camera/scanner and I can convert just about any hard book into a digital book and have it online 3 minutes later. I can do this many many times faster than I can read it. Its painfully easy to do.

They are TWO SEPARATE ACTS.

Giving a copy to your friend is illegal whether it has DRM OR NOT.

Giving an ebook to your friend and DELETING THE COPY YOU HAVE is no different than handing them the hard book.

If your NOT a Moral person DRM is nothing more than about 20 seconds google solution away to give out copies of the content.

If you are a moral person DRM is punishment and a headache for doing NOTHING WRONG and a DIRECT VIOLATION of your Personal Property Rights. its literally THEFT of your property.

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Old 02-28-2010, 01:50 AM   #100
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Patently false.

it has nothing to do with the RIGHT TO COPY. you COPY the book as you read it into the cells in your brain.

it has to do with control the DISTRIBUTION OF COPIES not any actual COPYING.

THIS is what copyright is supposed to be about. Nothing more. To prevent another publisher from making and selling copies. TO prevent someone from making a movie without your consent. To prevent someone from COPYING IT AND DISTRIBUTING IT without an agreement from you the author.

this is what copyright is and should and was about. Control over who profits from it even if the profit is ZERO. that control should reside with the AUTHOR ONLY.
I'd just like to make one small note. That this be for a limited time in order to promote the progress of science and the useful arts.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:03 AM   #101
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well that gets interesting. on PERSONAL copyright it should be life of the author.

on COMMERCIAL copyright it should have strict VERY SHORT limits. Here is what I would like to see.

Commercial Copyright would expire in stages.

after 5 years if commercial viability is gone or 10 years otherwise copyright would change.

Non Profit distribution copying altering mixing etc.. would be lawful but FOR PROFIT would be restricted. (this would also apply to PERSONAL copyright but a personal copyright retains the right to control right of profit until death of author if he chooses to remain non commercial) This way a corporation does not have the power to just "wait" till its copyright expires to use an author's idea without paying them. If a commercial deal is brokered the "clock" for the commercial rights starts from that point. since its already in the public allowed usage after 10 years its in the interest of corporate interest not to try and "wait out" a copyright holder. IE this protects the authors.

Non Profit means you don't SELL the work in question. Your allowed to be commercial IE ads to support bandwidth etc.. but it must be clear your not doing it to "make money" ie not charging per download not charging membership etc.. ie "non profit" this way some kids puts an mp3 on his website that also has google ad sense or something like that does not have to worry about it.

after 20 years it would enter the public domain unless its still commercially viable. If its still commercially viable it would retain its copyright for another 10 years and be reassessed from their. (non commercial works would NOT go PD unless desired or they die)Commercial Viable would NOT be defined by the copyright holder. It would be defined by logic. If I can not walk into walmart and buy the CD or it has not really sold many copies on itunes in the last year ITS NOT VIABLE anymore. Available would not equate to viable Especially for a digital medium. If its effectively OOP its not viable anymore.

ONLY REAL PERSONS ie recognized sentient (typically living and organic) beings could retain copyright for personal purposes.

APPLICATIONS ie "software" would fall under COPYRIGHT NOT PATENTS.

I want things in the public domain as fast as possible but not so fast that people can just "wait" for it to go public and deprive legitimate sales.

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Old 02-28-2010, 02:11 AM   #102
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So you're rather they assassinate Jk rowling so they can make harry potter and the new macguffin? A set finite time seem most reasonable, say 56 years. I mean if something will be commercially viable you've got to be willing to cough up the licensing fee before 50 years passes and it might not be viable any longer and 50 years later that fee is going to seem like pittance.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's a provision in US copyright law that allows some institutions to make copies of work under copyright as the copyright term nears an end if gaining a legal copy is impossible or unreasonably expensive (I think this applies to libraries as the public interest in the people having access to a previously published work trumps copyright.)
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