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Old 02-24-2010, 07:52 PM   #61
kennyc
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Originally Posted by Robert Minneman View Post
When it comes to digital media the various concerned industries have attempted to practice an aggressive "Guilty, and you shall hang by the neck until you are dead, Dead, DEAD!" kind of attitude (as seen by 7 year old little girls and 65 year old grandmothers being dragged into court by the RIAA for downloading one or two songs).
....
No disputing that, but even those cases were not "Presumed Guilty" they had to go before the court and prove the case.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:12 AM   #62
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Your thesis is flawed. You own the package (the digital storage media) and you can sell the storage media if you so wish. They are not separate. Even if they are separable (pulping books, for instance) requiring it of an owner is a violation of first sale doctorine.
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Hi Dave,
The first sale doctrine exists specifically because with paper books, the content and the media cannot be separated. Although you don't own the content, you own the package (the paper) and can sell the paper should you wish, assuming you've bought it legally in the first place. The logic of this doctrine does not apply to eBooks which are separate from the media on which they're displayed.

Whether DRM is a good idea is a good question. So is whether readers should patronize publishers who impose it. As a small publisher who does not impose DRM on eBooks I publish, as well as a reader, I tend to agree that DRM imposes costs in excess of any benefits it offers. In my opinion, refusing to buy eBooks with DRM and letting the publisher (and distributor) know that's why you're not buying is a far more effective tactic than making flawed legal arguments.

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Old 02-25-2010, 11:52 AM   #63
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Your thesis is flawed. You own the package (the digital storage media) and you can sell the storage media if you so wish. They are not separate. Even if they are separable (pulping books, for instance) requiring it of an owner is a violation of first sale doctorine.
But I think the question would be, if the package you purchased hard "serialized" DRM, where the package was only viewable on the eReader you originally opened it on/purchased it for, then legally, you could not sell that package later on.

I have no idea if anyone has implemented a DRM scheme in this manner, I doubt it would be in general use because you'd have to assume that ALL readers were following some form of standard to allow for a DRM that could operate across Sony, Nook, Kindle, etc. and extract/indentify a serial number.

Granted a DRM scheme like that would be fairly easy to unlock, but if you later sold the "unlocked" copy, you'd be in violation of copy right, as you've sold an ALTERED, beyond standard "wear and tear", package.

Anyway I think it really comes down to the saying:

"Locks aren't meant to keep criminals out, they're supposed to keep the honest people out."

So DRM really doesn't do anything to deter someone who intends to break the copy right anyway, it's really just there to make it so difficult it keeps all us non-criminals from doing it.

Copy right laws really don't prevent criminal activity, they're just there to make everyone else's lives miserable if they get caught breaking them.
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:24 PM   #64
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Anyway I think it really comes down to the saying:

"Locks aren't meant to keep criminals out, they're supposed to keep the honest people out."

So DRM really doesn't do anything to deter someone who intends to break the copy right anyway, it's really just there to make it so difficult it keeps all us non-criminals from doing it.

Copy right laws really don't prevent criminal activity, they're just there to make everyone else's lives miserable if they get caught breaking them.

Agreed. Though I'd say that it's "Copyright laws in their CURRENT form..."

What needs to happen is DRM needs to go away like it has for music. And Copyright laws need to evolve.

1. There needs to be very clear fair use laws about what people can do with digital content they bought and own themselves. The current laws are super vague (in the US, not aware of other countries). They need to be made more clear and concrete, and very strongly in favor of owners of content being able to use it like they would physical content--loan it, sell it and delete their copy etc.

2. The copyright laws need to become criminal laws--but minor ones. Downloading a book/song/movie is a minor misdemeanor. No silly, absurdly high law suit settlement. Get a penalty like value of item +25%. So a $1 mp3, you'd pay a fine of $1.25. A $10 book, you'd get a fine of $12.50.

Just something to make it worth people's while to just buy the content rather than risk stealing.

Have harsher penalties for the pirates that are distributing illegal materials, as the supply on the darknets needs to be cut down on, along with lowering the demand as above.

And there would have to be some law enforcement agencies to detect illegal distribution and downloading, and enforce it. In the US I'd just create a federal agency to deal with it. Other countries can set their own laws and how to enforce them (or do nothing) publishers, music labels, movie studios etc. can then look at those laws and decide if they want to do business in the digital arena based on those factors and others.



I think that's really what has to happen as we move into an era of digital products. Customers who buy them must have their rights protected and must be able to use them much the same way they can use a real book or cd etc. But content creators and publishers also must have their content protected and have some formal, legal recourse against people who obtain it without paying for it, and people who distribute illegal copies to 100s or 1000s or more people online etc.

A system like that gives those paying for content nothing to worry about, and doesn't hit minor pirates with gigantic fines terrible disproportionate to the value of the content the obtained illegally as we've seen in the RIAA lawsuits.

So I see something like my example as kind of an ideal middle ground for legit consumers and the content creators/publishers.

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Old 02-25-2010, 03:36 PM   #65
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Copy right laws [EDIT] they're just there to make everyone else's lives miserable [EDIT].
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Old 02-25-2010, 04:35 PM   #66
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Agreed. Though I'd say that it's "Copyright laws in their CURRENT form..."

What needs to happen is DRM needs to go away like it has for music. And Copyright laws need to evolve.
......

I'm with you there!

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Old 02-25-2010, 09:45 PM   #67
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2. The copyright laws need to become criminal laws--but minor ones. Downloading a book/song/movie is a minor misdemeanor. No silly, absurdly high law suit settlement. Get a penalty like value of item +25%. So a $1 mp3, you'd pay a fine of $1.25. A $10 book, you'd get a fine of $12.50.

Just something to make it worth people's while to just buy the content rather than risk stealing.

Have harsher penalties for the pirates that are distributing illegal materials, as the supply on the darknets needs to be cut down on, along with lowering the demand as above.

And there would have to be some law enforcement agencies to detect illegal distribution and downloading, and enforce it. In the US I'd just create a federal agency to deal with it. Other countries can set their own laws and how to enforce them (or do nothing) publishers, music labels, movie studios etc. can then look at those laws and decide if they want to do business in the digital arena based on those factors and others.
Will this include things like probable cause, the whole deal with 4'th 5'th 6'th and 8'th amendment rights at least for people in the US of course?

I've never had a problem with paying fair value for what I get, I do have a problem with monopoly pricing, in the past congress has set licensing rates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_license would that be acceptable for you? We're keeping in mind there's no right to profit or a right to maintain a certain level of profit only the right to try to make a buck. Would a set royalty rate per book (as opposed to a percentage and perhaps indexed to inflation) be acceptable to you as you claim to want to help artists and let the rest of us rage against the abuses of big buisness without you calling us thieves for objecting to not having the savings in the cost of ebooks passed on to us?
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:00 PM   #68
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Will this include things like probable cause, the whole deal with 4'th 5'th 6'th and 8'th amendment rights at least for people in the US of course?
It would have to. You have all those rights regardless of the type of crime you're being charged with.

The privacy stuff is easy to get around. Just like we have no expectation to privacy in public, we have no expectation to privacy with our internet actions.

They'll need a warrant to seize your computer to use as evidence, they don't to monitor file sharing sites and get IP addressed of illegal downloaders--or at least don't need a warrant specific to you. May need evidence the site is having illegal file traffic to get access to their records to get users IP addresses etc.

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Would a set royalty rate per book (as opposed to a percentage and perhaps indexed to inflation) be acceptable to you as you claim to want to help artists and let the rest of us rage against the abuses of big buisness without you calling us thieves for objecting to not having the savings in the cost of ebooks passed on to us?
I wouldn't have much issue with it--as long as ebook prices were the same or very close to print prices. I think people overestimate the cost savings. Especially for best sellers. The cost per book has to be pretty damn low for something shipping millions of copies. I'd be shocked if it was more than $1 a book or so.

E-books can be a tad cheaper probably, but there's no reason for them to be substantially cheaper--at least once DRM is gone.

I mean without DRM that e-book should be just as valuable to you as the print book--as if you preferred print books you wouldn't be buying the e-book.

The cost to print books isn't that much, and authors, editors etc. are doing the same amount of work and you're enjoying the book just as much. Prices should thus be about the same as the print versions in my mind.

But again, we're going in circles on this, my view is clear as is yours. I enjoy debating this stuff, but sometimes it's just time to agree to disagree and stop running in circles when neither person is going to change their mind.
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:45 PM   #69
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The Creator of the work is the owner of the copyright. End of story. The law defines certain exemptions to others in copying or excerpting parts of the work.
Creator of the work is granted an exclusive right to copy the work for some time. Usually by some state on behalf of the citizens. Saying he's an "owner" of something is just twisting of this idea, just as saying it's his "intellectual property". He's not - the public is the owner, if anyone.
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:50 PM   #70
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Creator of the work is granted an exclusive right to copy the work for some time. Usually by some state on behalf of the citizens. Saying he's an "owner" of something is just twisting of this idea, just as saying it's his "intellectual property". He's not - the public is the owner, if anyone.
I think the ideal of the public owning the work of others is pretty silly, unless you're a raging commie or something.

But that said I do get your point. What a content creator "owns" is the writes to reproduce and make money of his creation during their lifetimes (+70 years currently, which should be shortened).

After that, it can go public domain. Then no one owns the rights to it and anyone can use it as they see fit. So just semantics I guess. I just don't like the wording of the public owning anything--especially someone else's work.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:13 PM   #71
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I think the ideal of the public owning the work of others is pretty silly, unless you're a raging commie or something.

But that said I do get your point. What a content creator "owns" is the writes to reproduce and make money of his creation during their lifetimes (+70 years currently, which should be shortened).

After that, it can go public domain. Then no one owns the rights to it and anyone can use it as they see fit. So just semantics I guess. I just don't like the wording of the public owning anything--especially someone else's work.
I think that's a little unfair, true that no one owns those works is better wording that the public owns them but the concept of public property doesn't make someone a communist, public buildings are the work of the people who made the bricks and cut the wood and put it all together, they got paid and the people got the result. Public parks, public restrooms, public streets to drive on, PBS, NPR.

It probably seems like I'm starting to dog you it seems to be us being online at the same times and you're not a target of mine or anything. I mean I seem to disagree with every opinion you're expressing but it's not personal I'd give the same reply no matter who made the post except for this part telling you I'd make the same reply.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:27 PM   #72
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I think that's a little unfair, true that no one owns those works is better wording that the public owns them but the concept of public property doesn't make someone a communist, public buildings are the work of the people who made the bricks and cut the wood and put it all together, they got paid and the people got the result. Public parks, public restrooms, public streets to drive on, PBS, NPR.

It probably seems like I'm starting to dog you it seems to be us being online at the same times and you're not a target of mine or anything. I mean I seem to disagree with every opinion you're expressing but it's not personal I'd give the same reply no matter who made the post except for this part telling you I'd make the same reply.

Agreed. I have nothing personal against you either. We just have very different opinions and world views, so we're going to but heads if we try to debate such topics. As I said in the other thread, we're polar opposites and neither of us really respect the other's world view. That's no disrespect from me to you or vice versa--just the way it is coming from very different world views etc.

I will say stuff like PBS, NPR etc. are't a fair example. Those are in some sense owned by the public as they're rain with donations from the public, tax payer money etc.

An author writing a book didn't receive public funding to do so, if they did, then I'd think you and your ilk had a point.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:38 PM   #73
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Well there's public school, universities that receive public funds, government grants and similar thing but I wouldn't argue that entitles me to anything from a specific person, these things benefit society it's in yours and my interest that people know how to read and write and do basic math and the other useful things one learns in school. People who can read stop signs are far less likely to run me over. But there are public funds used to enforce copyright and without a public domain there's no public interest in enforcing copyright laws.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:45 PM   #74
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Well there's public school, universities that receive public funds, government grants and similar thing but I wouldn't argue that entitles me to anything from a specific person, these things benefit society it's in yours and my interest that people know how to read and write and do basic math and the other useful things one learns in school..

But public schools do entitle you to something--not just society. If you're a state resident--and as such you (if you worked in high school) parents paid taxes that helped support that university (and other's in the state).

As such, you can go to school for MUCH cheaper than people from out of state. In the state I teach, the out of state tuition is 4 times as much as in state.

The only reason a public domain exists is to make sure classic works from long dead authors are available when the content creator is dead and there's a risk that there's no one to keep trying to make money off of it so it will fade away.

It's not there to make current works from still living folks alive, that's what libraries are for. It's there to make sure works stay around for posterity when there's no financial incentive for anyone to keep printing them etc.

All the other public stuff like universities, k-12 schools, PBS, NPR exist because they're needed for a healthy society and they are public as the public pays for them both with taxes and donations. Works created privately aren't tied to the public and only enter the public domain as way to keep them around for posterity.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:06 AM   #75
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The public domain existed before 1976 therefore it is unreasonable to claim it only exists to keep available the work of the dead.

Also you missed my point, people who aren't me can go to a public school it doesn't mean they owe me something for doing so at least no more than someone who went to a private school. There's still a system of laws and a social contract.
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