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Old 08-24-2006, 04:36 PM   #16
NatCh
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Ah, but because the OS is 'open' it should be possible to develop our own apps to run on it, right?

I'm assuming that the GPL would require them to reveal how the OS interacts with the various hardware pieces (memory, controls, etc.) of the Reader.

Last edited by NatCh; 08-24-2006 at 04:36 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-25-2006, 05:14 AM   #17
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I'm just wondering if Sony used the same batteries as they did in their laptops.
Kabooooom!!!
We'll all get splattered in eInk :-(
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Old 08-25-2006, 09:07 AM   #18
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I don't think you'll see a reasonable price drop to a mass-market price (say £150 or €200) unless the costs of said readers are subsidised by book suppliers.

The e-book reader suppliers, as far as I can see, don't appear to be working with the content suppliers. They need to get the big book suppliers (not the retailers - the publishers) on board with a decent supply of books affordable and available everywhere - in the shops and on the web.

The mantra of "if you build it they will come" is not a truism. iRex and Sony need to get their reader prices down and that means getting the book people on board.

When a book is published all the content is on a computer therefore converting that it a ebook is not an unreasonable effort. The problem for the book suppliers is copyright. Unlike a real book which can be given away but the book remains a single copy, ebooks can be copied. Get the protection sorted to allow it to be playable on 1 or 2 readers at a time and the book publishers can be brought on board to subsidise the readers and make them available to everyone.

Similiar efforts should be made to subsidise for students and universities where having all ones reference books in a single place is a clear advantage on weight and availability.

Subsidise is the answer!

Marky

Last edited by markrich; 08-25-2006 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 08-25-2006, 09:23 AM   #19
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The problem is, most people are not interested in DRM. You can resell a p-book, but a restricted e-book can't be resold.

And that is one of the points why I don't like DRM. I bought a book and if I don't keep it a life long, I'm going to sell it at some time. With a restricted e-book you are screwed.

A DRM system I would accept needs to implement some sort of resell ability.
If we take SD-Cards they have implemented some DRM mechanism. So you could lock the e-book to run only from a certain card, now I would like to see a solution to allow the transfer from one card A to card B, including the revoke of the right to read the book from card A. That would be a option I would accept.

something to think about: does anyone know a Digital Restrictions Management system which has not been circumvented in the past?
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THJahar
I'm just wondering if Sony used the same batteries as they did in their laptops.
Kabooooom!!!
We'll all get splattered in eInk :-(

Wait, I thought that was Dell ....
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrich
I don't think you'll see a reasonable price drop to a mass-market price (say £150 or €200) unless the costs of said readers are subsidised by book suppliers.
Marky
Don't despair guys ! Remember what happened when it was found out that printers costing $500 actually cost $50.

The companies developing e-book readers now will have r&d to reimburse. Natural. Then everything will change, but we have to buy now to make sure it does. Devices made the Iliad way are an other beast. Hand and overbuilding have a price that can not go down much. But devices like Sony's and Hanlin's have potential. Of course Sony does not have a history of such "largesses".

I continue to think that everything will move only when other "populist" companies (samsung,panasonic etc.) come aboard .
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:40 AM   #22
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Gemstar proved that subsidy alone doesn't work for ebooks either.

You need subsidy, you need current hot content, you need prices that seem "fair" to consumers and you need a device people don't have to think about using or worry about breaking or losing. Remember, you can put your entire library in the palm of your hand also means: you can lose, break, have stolen your entire library (and no DRM outfit is going to replace your stolen, lost, broken content...)

University usage? The day you can take your iLiad and drop it in a bucket of beer, pull it out after 15 minutes, set it on fire, stomp it with your shoe to put out the flames and then wrap it in duct tape to keep the binding from falling off. That's when you've got a university grade ebook reader.

Books can soak up an amazing amount of punishment and when damaged can be field repaired with various materials readily available in most locations around the world. Ebook readers however are delicate creatures that sometimes can't even survive the process of delivery to their new owners, and when damaged must be sent to exotic far off places for repair/vacation. Even thinking about repairing it yourself requires you to turn yourself into the maker for a warranty violation.
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_k
The problem is, most people are not interested in DRM. You can resell a p-book, but a restricted e-book can't be resold.

And that is one of the points why I don't like DRM. I bought a book and if I don't keep it a life long, I'm going to sell it at some time. With a restricted e-book you are screwed.

A DRM system I would accept needs to implement some sort of resell ability.
If we take SD-Cards they have implemented some DRM mechanism. So you could lock the e-book to run only from a certain card, now I would like to see a solution to allow the transfer from one card A to card B, including the revoke of the right to read the book from card A. That would be a option I would accept.

something to think about: does anyone know a Digital Restrictions Management system which has not been circumvented in the past?
Why should DRM be a problem. It's more of an issue if one ebook is sold and copied a dozen times reducing the income and incentive to the publisher. If a book can be locked to a reader when opened then it can be unlocked and passed on when finished. Sell the books on SD cards in the book shops on the high street and you have instant mass market. The reseller is happy as it is able to sell more than one copy of a book, the publisher is happy as there is a market for the books and the purchaser is happy as they can pass on the book when finished with - just like a real book by unloading (unlocking) from the reader.

You will need DRM in some form else the market will never grow and if the market never grows then the readers will always cost silly money.

Marky
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatCh

Wait, I thought that was Dell ....
Sony supplies the laptop batteries for Dell, Apple, and a few other companies (including, of course, the Vaio line). So they're the ones ultimately responsible.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/25/s...ost-them-200m/

Too bad :-( Lots of bad news recently for Sony. I hope it doesn't delay the Reader further.
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrich
Sell the books on SD cards in the book shops on the high street and you have instant mass market. The reseller is happy as it is able to sell more than one copy of a book, the publisher is happy as there is a market for the books and the purchaser is happy as they can pass on the book when finished with - just like a real book by unloading (unlocking) from the reader.

You will need DRM in some form else the market will never grow and if the market never grows then the readers will always cost silly money.

Marky
Good points but don't forget that hardware changes often. How long do you think that SD cards have left as a standard ? How long do books last compared to that

There is another thing I see that bothers me when I read replys .
Why is it that when we talk about readers we must assume that they are content dependant ? Certainly Irex has proven that wrong, they are only interested in the revenue brought by their machine (and the repairs ) Sure Sony thinks otherwise but that does'nt mean that others woud think the same.

Don't forget that readers are not only for books, I will use mine for reports and work, and maybe shop manuals.
You'll also use them to learn software away from the computer.
A friend of mine bought a digital camera. The instruction manual comes on a CD, imagine working that on the field without a computer.
I know today's kids read less novels but there is still a load of information that has to be read, and most of it is free .
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:45 PM   #26
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@Bingle -- I missed that somehow -- thanks for the info!



Quote:
Originally Posted by markrich
Sell the books on SD cards in the book shops on the high street and you have instant mass market. The reseller is happy as it is able to sell more than one copy of a book, the publisher is happy as there is a market for the books and the purchaser is happy as they can pass on the book when finished with - just like a real book by unloading (unlocking) from the reader.
This is more or less what I've thought, too, for several years now. If only the pub's would think of it! 1Mb cards would do for the vast majority of texts , and I bet 2Mb cards would be dirt cheap in bulk -- cheap enough, maybe, to still cost less than printing the paper versions. They could probably even work out how to do download business by downloading directly to an SD card and reading the relevant info from the card before download. You could still move the file off the card if you liked, it just wouldn't work anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrich
You will need DRM in some form else the market will never grow and if the market never grows then the readers will always cost silly money.
The pub's are scared that they'll be robbed blind via pirated copies -- that's why DRM is "needed" at the moment. BAEN's successful DRM-less example doesn't seem to sink in, for some reason. (shrug)

I whole-heartedly agree that only mass acceptance can allow the reader prices to drop. They won't be able to reach a break-even point on their R&D investment if they can't sell a certain number of units (whatever that number might be), and they'd have to just fold in that circumstance. It does bode well for the size of the market that iRex has apparently sold a couple thousand units while the OS/Software is still beta -- and individual sales ain't even their target market!
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Old 08-25-2006, 03:36 PM   #27
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Good points but don't forget that hardware changes often. How long do you think that SD cards have left as a standard ? How long do books last compared to that
I don't think the format is a problem If record companies were worried about the longevity of the CD format they wouldn't have started shipping music on them. As long as there are devices requiring the format then there will always be a supply. As long as there is a supply of the format then devices will continue to use it.

Marky

Last edited by markrich; 08-25-2006 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 08-25-2006, 04:03 PM   #28
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That's a big falacy. DRM books are not owned, just rented for a period of time that depends on technology and the willingness of the seller to help you out when you change your device. DRM books are far less valuable than drm-free books or print books so that needs to be reflected in their price being set at "disposable" level which is about 2$ in my opinion. Since that price is not economically viable, the commercial ebook market is the way is now (almost dead) and that's not going to change by introducing all the cheap ereading devices in the world.
The action now is in digitizing (Google) and the underground, and that's what will bring the ebooks out of the commercial wilderness.

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Quote:
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You will need DRM in some form else the market will never grow and if the market never grows then the readers will always cost silly money.

Marky
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Old 08-25-2006, 05:12 PM   #29
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I don't think the format is a problem If record companies were worried about the longevity of the CD format they wouldn't have started shipping music on them.
Marky
I've been around for a while now let me see...
I have 45s and 33s in vinyl, I have 8 tracks, cassettes, of course CDs, a couple of 12" laser discs, newer audio quality vinyl. They now want to put music on blue ray ? CDs are doomed...
Then 5 1/4" floppies, 3 1/2" disquettes, streaming data tape, I forgot old magnetic tape but I don't have the machine for that anymore. And then a 5 megabyte hard disk...I mean boxfuls of junk now, only in the past thirty years!
And I have'nt even approached movies.
If I had had to ask my DRM supplier to transfer to the next format... hed'...well he'll tell you when you try!

Do you remember the people stranded with the older e-book readers with DRM'd books ?

There is a question I have about to which I have no answer. Is there a time frame or limit on DRM'd content ?

I'll buy DRM when h..l freezes over.(the way the planet is deteriorating it might be soon)
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Old 08-25-2006, 05:14 PM   #30
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how dI do dat ?
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