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Old 02-12-2010, 12:11 PM   #16
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Of course, I'm an Apple hater, and I think trying to shoo us away is a bit odd. Fawning, back-patting, and high-fiving aren't terribly productive forms of discussion either.
well i don't see a lot of fawning, back-patting and high-fiving going on. but i do see a lot of "it won't sell because it doesn't have eink" or "no one will buy it because it doesn't have a SD card slot" and personal attacks going on.

take a look at the other forums here, you don't see people posting on the kindle forum "the kindle doesn't have Qi so it sucks and is doomed to fail." it's just weird how some people have to brag about their displeasure with apple and what it sells. i don't understand why they feel the need to come in here and rant and rave that they don't like the iPad and aren't going to buy one. ok. so what? that's nice. have a great life. move on.

i didn't buy mcdonalds yesterday, don't see me coming on here and posting about it.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:14 PM   #17
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And so the thread ends up being a place where the endless negative stream of the same things over and over continues.... it's really kind of funny...
Given the thread started out by somebody with no actual authority to do so declaring that certain posters were basically not welcome on this part of the board its quite surprising that the thread wasn't worse.

Incidentally, since the ipad is not actually out and almost nobody has used one, any claims about how bad or how good it will actually be seem like they are pointless hyperbole and liable to cause posters with an opposite point of view to respond to them.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:15 PM   #18
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And so the thread ends up being a place where the endless negative stream of the same things over and over continues.... it's really kind of funny...
Surely this doesn't surprise you.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:23 PM   #19
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I don't see the need for moderation if the attacks are not personal. Apple is a polarizing company. Nobody's products are perfect so why would you say the negative comments have no place? The Kindle and Sony camps have constantly sniped at each other. You need a thicker reality distortion field. Stand just a little closer to Steve Jobs.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:27 PM   #20
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You need a thicker reality distortion field. Stand just a little closer to Steve Jobs.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Penforhire View Post
I don't see the need for moderation if the attacks are not personal. Apple is a polarizing company. Nobody's products are perfect so why would you say the negative comments have no place? The Kindle and Sony camps have constantly sniped at each other. You need a thicker reality distortion field. Stand just a little closer to Steve Jobs.
As a long-time denizen of Apple-focused forums and boards, it has been my experience that Apple "fans" tend to be just as critical, nitpicky, and snippy about Apple products, when they are in community they are comfortable with, and when discussions have a positive overall tone to them-conducive to spirited discourse. Which hopefully we can foster here! I think what scottjl is reacting to is the perception that some come into product-specific forums not to discuss, but merely to provoke. Which isn't the same thing.

I do agree that the best forums are ones that have lively debates on the positives and negatives of any product. But with the understanding that the regulars in a specific product forum are there mostly for the shared experiences of the specific products they use and enjoy.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Crowl View Post
Given the thread started out by somebody with no actual authority to do so declaring that certain posters were basically not welcome on this part of the board its quite surprising that the thread wasn't worse.

Incidentally, since the ipad is not actually out and almost nobody has used one, any claims about how bad or how good it will actually be seem like they are pointless hyperbole and liable to cause posters with an opposite point of view to respond to them.
oh crowl, give it a rest. you're one of the few on here who just seems to thrive at poking holes at the ipad and apple in general. do you really have nothing better to do with your time than sit here and be critical?

no. i have no authority and i never said you weren't welcome, but listening to the same few people post the same few negative comments over and over serves no purpose other than to feed some egos. it certainly isn't constructive.

like i've said, i do not see this same behavior in the other forums. no one posting that they hate sony or amazon or B&N and i can't imagine that it would be tolerated for long. if all people have time for is to sit and post complaints about a device then maybe this forum isn't as useful as i thought it was.
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:08 PM   #23
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I do agree that the best forums are ones that have lively debates on the positives and negatives of any product. But with the understanding that the regulars in a specific product forum are there mostly for the shared experiences of the specific products they use and enjoy.
Agreed. Especially with the latter half--at least once the iPad is out.

This forum should then be like the Kindle forum and other device forum. More a place for OWNERS of the device to talk about their experiences, give tips, answer questions from people thinking of buying one.

Hopefully once it's out the people who hate Apple and would never buy one will drift away, the if it glows it blows crowd will go back to their device forums etc. as none of that stuff is constructive debate.
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by scottjl View Post
well i don't see a lot of fawning, back-patting and high-fiving going on. but i do see a lot of "it won't sell because it doesn't have eink" or "no one will buy it because it doesn't have a SD card slot" and personal attacks going on.

take a look at the other forums here, you don't see people posting on the kindle forum "the kindle doesn't have Qi so it sucks and is doomed to fail." it's just weird how some people have to brag about their displeasure with apple and what it sells. i don't understand why they feel the need to come in here and rant and rave that they don't like the iPad and aren't going to buy one. ok. so what? that's nice. have a great life. move on.

i didn't buy mcdonalds yesterday, don't see me coming on here and posting about it.
Better step over to the Kindle forum. (Or for the real experience, try the Irex forum!) You can see incessant comments like:

the Kindle needs color
page turns are extremely slow
the contrast is no good
PDF handling is no good
the browser is slow
etc, etc, etc

and guess what? Nobody is complaining! Such comments are good, because people who think about buying a device need the whole story. Not just glowing assessment about why Apple was right not to include a certain feature, but rather a serious discussion on how you can work around those problems. Why is the Apple forum the only forum where people try to shut others up for voicing some honest criticism? And yes, some points may be repeated by other users who have not read through every post on every thread. So what? I am studying the iPad threads because I have some interest in it and want to find out more -- good and bad. For example, I don't just want to hear "you don't need flash", I want to know if anything can be done about it.

Last edited by HansTWN; 02-12-2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:47 PM   #25
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... to the moderators, can we get some moderation here? i don't see people going into the kindle or sony forums and posting the same volume of negative comments. on the first thread page alone i see 8 negative threads (many with several pages of postings) out of 25....
LOL, you should see the Kindle threads when stuff like the deletion of the 1984 happens (there is irony here, too, which also applies to the above comment).
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:21 PM   #26
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@hanstwn, there's a difference between saying "i wish the kindle had XXXX" and posting "apple is a greedy corporate monopoly and no one should buy from them" as we're getting in some of the threads here.

i don't get why people need to spend time and effort posting negative comments and then continuing to go on rants. they don't have better things to do?

@sonist, well the 1984 thing, i can see why people would have been outraged with amazon's behavior with that whole incident. hopefully amazon learned their lesson. it's one reason i chose a 600 over a kindle, but you didn't see me going in the kindle forums and ranting about it.
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Old 02-13-2010, 12:00 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
Better step over to the Kindle forum. (Or for the real experience, try the Irex forum!) You can see incessant comments like:

the Kindle needs color
page turns are extremely slow
the contrast is no good
PDF handling is no good
the browser is slow
etc, etc, etc

and guess what? Nobody is complaining! Such comments are good, because people who think about buying a device need the whole story. Not just glowing assessment about why Apple was right not to include a certain feature, but rather a serious discussion on how you can work around those problems. Why is the Apple forum the only forum where people try to shut others up for voicing some honest criticism? And yes, some points may be repeated by other users who have not read through every post on every thread. So what? I am studying the iPad threads because I have some interest in it and want to find out more -- good and bad. For example, I don't just want to hear "you don't need flash", I want to know if anything can be done about it.
So if someone goes to the Kindle forums, a place where people who gladly paid for their Kindles, read on eInk screens, and believe they are excellent for reading, and posts "how can anyone possibly read on those crappy eInk screens? They are terrible for reading. No one could possibly enjoy it-you are wasting your money, but then again, Bezos can sell those idiots anything", and then argues with people who DO enjoy their Kindles...you think that is constructive criticism and contributes to a healthy forum discussion? Personally I'd get tired of it, and not really enjoy visiting after a while. But you say no one complains?

But hey, maybe we are just looking for different things in a forum. I prefer to find out about a product from people who have used it, and are familiar with it. And I prefer to contribute to a forum that is more positive in nature, even with the positives and negatives being discussed about any product.

As I've said before, and I'll say again, I don't mind reading constructive criticism, and discussions of the positives and negatives of the iPad or the iPhone. I'm interested in why others will or won't buy a specific product, and what features they want or need. And I love to debate the issues with people who enjoy debating the issues-especially since they know I enjoy using Apple products.

What I'm not interested in reading is the "No one should buy or use Apple products/Steve Jobs sucks" rants. I totally respect your take on it, and totally respect your decision not to ever buy Apple products, or believe anything Steve Jobs says. You can even egg his house if you want. I don't care. But I don't want to have to wade through them in this forum, which is for people interested in buying and using Apple products, specifically in terms of reading and eBooks on Apple products, but also in a wider sense, how Apple does things.

And for what its worth, I've enjoyed the give-and-take discussions with people like Sonist, dmaul, dawn and LDBoblo, to name just a few who hold different takes on many issues than I do, and have different ideas about what they want in an eReader.
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Old 02-13-2010, 03:37 AM   #28
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So the lesson kids, is that you should be constructive if you're going to be a hater!
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Old 02-13-2010, 04:18 AM   #29
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What I'm not interested in reading is the "No one should buy or use Apple products/Steve Jobs sucks" rants. I totally respect your take on it, and totally respect your decision not to ever buy Apple products, or believe anything Steve Jobs says. You can even egg his house if you want. I don't care. But I don't want to have to wade through them in this forum, which is for people interested in buying and using Apple products, specifically in terms of reading and eBooks on Apple products, but also in a wider sense, how Apple does things.
Apparently you have not really read any of my other posts. While I have my issues with Jobs, I have only mentioned them at an appropriate time (e.g. the answer to "why doesn't the iPad have flash?" answer: "Steve Jobs' relationship with Adobe"). And I have always approached to shortcomings from the angle of what can be done to work around them. And if there ever was a place for some serious criticism, it was the thread -- started by you! -- "10 reasons why I won't be buying the iPad". A specific thread, to discuss problems with the iPad. And sorry, this may include some problems with the company, service, direction, etc. It may enlighten you to read the Irex DR forum, where people discuss issues with the device, service, updates, etc.

Seriously, in spite of your frequent protestations, you do seem to take constructive criticism as a personal attack. And for the 10th time, if I had no interest in the iPad, I wouldn't waste my time trolling around this subforum. So may I suggest that you actually read what I have written?

And iPad "haters"? Jesus, how can anyone hate what he/she hasn't even seen? How come you are ok with such over-the-top rhetoric? That doesn't disturb you? If you really are interested in an objective discussion, you should come down on that like a ton of bricks.

Can we please stop these silly attempts at shutting interested parties up, just because they don't constantly sing the praises and have some issues they want to discuss or see resolved?
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:47 AM   #30
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Hans, you need to see what was said in some of the other threads. It's fine to say "I have no interest in the iPad because it doesn't have Flash support." But what is constructive when someone posts "Apple is a greedy corporation and has no interest in consumers"? Over and over. And states "anyone with an iPod pirates their music" without a single shred of evidence to back it up? Or "Apple is in the business of lying. You want to believe whatever bollocks marketing speak they have, you go ahead."

Tell me, what is constructive, helpful or useful out of any of those comments?

Now I don't mind people saying "I wish it worked with a stylus, other than a meatstick" or "Apple designed the iPad for media consumers, but not with business functions I need". Sure, those are legitimate, personal, gripes. Even complaining that they don't see alternatives to the iTunes store, which I think many of us will be able to correct. Ripping your own music with LAME or another application, DVDs with Handbrake, and possibly (we'll know when the iPad is out) Calibre/Stanza for eBooks.

This isn't a silly attempt to shut interested parties up. It's a serious attempt to shut trolls who have no interest in buying an iPad, only spouting trash, up.
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