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Old 02-01-2010, 07:56 AM   #16
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I cannot loan my HB or PB. I cannot sell them at a used book store, for credit on other used books. Although I prefer to read electronically, and will pay some premium for the privilege, even $9.99 seems expensive at times. I went several years once, just reading loaners from friends. I got all the newest books, as soon as she was done with them.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:03 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by zacheryjensen View Post
To me the better argument is unforeseen usage. For example, those DRM'd books you bought from Sony will never, ever work on a non-sony-sanctioned device. That might seem ok, but someday you'll want a nicer reader, and maybe it won't be made by Sony, and so you won't be able to use your library on it.

I read the books fine on my dad and mums coolER book readers as I said earlier!

Also the searching/indexing someone else mentioned is a good example of an unforeseen use. In fact, just managing the books with non-Sony software for any reason, as Sony makes some patently atrocious software for their eReader library management.... oy.

I manage them in caliber works fine.

Anyway, there are numerous cases where DRM stops you from doing something that should just be trivial. For example, in another realm (music) I had a few albums purchased with DRM, and it was never a problem because (and this is still the case mostly) all the devices I ever used to listen to that music were sanctioned. But then one day I bought a PS3 and it could play the format of my music collection, AAC, just fine. I thought it would be so nice to have all my cool exciting music on the HDD on the PS3 to use as background music in my favorite PS3 game, Wipeout HD, until I realized that a few of my favorite such albums were DRM encrusted. So despite there being no legally reasonable explanation for why I couldn't do what I wanted to do, the technology made it impossible (Until I stripped the DRM myself, which is illegal to do!)

That said, DRM is just a factor in the offer. As long as the consumer is aware of what it means to them, and they still feel the price is acceptable given the added restrictions, then more power to them. I don't believe one should become a religious zealot over some relatively unimportant technology choices. We're talking about entertainment here, for the most part, and the loss of a book isn't really that big of a deal in the long view.
Couple of clarifying points in Red, however as you say at the bottom we know the DRM is there and what it does, I do feel though that some people who are anti DRM(And I'd prefer not to have it) exagerate an awful lot or maybe are not aware of how some particular DRM schemes work now.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by stustaff View Post
I dont think you understand how the DRM works. or I dont?

My files are stored on my home PC and backed up on an external drive not on anyone elses serves so thats a non issue.
if i have a computer crash(unlikely I use Macs ) then that wont stop me copying the books onto a reader via drag and drop! as they are already authorised to me.

the computer can be deactivated via the sony software from any computer i log into, so a crashing computer does not cause me to lose '1 of my authorised devices'

So basically non of what you said applies to the DRM system that I am currently happy with and again if I hadnt been happy i wouldnt of bought DRM Ebooks.

No, it's you, definitely not me. But, hey, go ahead and enjoy paying to be restricted. It's obvious you are the target audience for DRM, and just another example of why this whole book mess isn't worth batting an eyelid over. Just another in a mob of of willing customers happy to let the content providers do whatever they like, whenever they like.

Me, I've stopped caring.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:15 AM   #19
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No, it's you, definitely not me. But, hey, go ahead and enjoy paying to be restricted. It's obvious you are the target audience for DRM, and just another example of why this whole book mess isn't worth batting an eyelid over. Just another in a mob of of willing customers happy to let the content providers do whatever they like, whenever they like.

Me, I've stopped caring.
But all the reasons you gave none of them were true!

you basically applied a pile of assumptions and beliefs to try and make me see why DRM isnt a good thing but none of them apply to the modern Epub DRM.

Im not saying you shouldnt check DRM to cover yourself against all the things you said but they just dont apply.

What do you feel are the risks with the Sony/Adobe etc DRM?

fact is my DRM 'restricted' Ebook is less restriceted than the actual HB that it was cheaper than.

If i buy the new Lee child HB can my family all read it at the same time? - No
Can i email it to my dad to read? - No I could post it but that would cost more money
If i lose it do i have a backup stored somewhere? - No

do you see what Im saying the DRM product I bought is better for me and thats why I am happy to pay for it with DRM

Last edited by stustaff; 02-01-2010 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:16 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by stustaff View Post
Couple of clarifying points in Red, however as you say at the bottom we know the DRM is there and what it does, I do feel though that some people who are anti DRM(And I'd prefer not to have it) exagerate an awful lot or maybe are not aware of how some particular DRM schemes work now.
Perhaps then I need to reclarify, or restate, the point about sanctioned devices. If you're reading DRM books on a cooler then you're not reading sony DRM books, you must be using ADE ePubs or similar, in which case you are still limited to devices that are licensing adobe's content management technology. I saw the LRX in the quote in your post and mistakenly assumed you were using LRX files as well. In the context of ePub and ADEPT DRM (ironic name considering how long it's been cracked) I would point out that I, as an iPhone user, cannot take advantage of ADEPT DRM documents because the one and only ebook reader software available there that supports both me dropping in my own files and the ADEPT scheme, is a horrible piece of garbage (talking about txtr here.) And that's pretty significant considering the mass appeal and software support of the iPhone platform. And it's even more ironic since the most popular eBook reading software that does allow your own files is Stanza which exclusively supports ePub and eReader formats, but no DRM on the ePubs.

It doesn't matter which DRM scheme you're involving, it's still limiting you one way or another. Though a more broadly accepted DRM scheme is certainly preferable, I doubt there is any promise from Adobe to keep their servers up so you can authorize devices in the future. In fact I bet along the lines somewhere we agreed to explicitly not expect such guarantees. So it's still a central point of failure. I hope that the newer password based DRM catches on, because at least in that case, I don't depend on any third party to use my DRM'd books with supported devices down the road.

I do agree that a lot of people don't understand the real limitations of the systems, but it is an unfortunate side effect in and of itself of such arbitrary limiting systems. They confuse consumers, and that would probably be my biggest gripe against DRM personally. Some DRM schemes are widely used without more than maybe 0.5% of consumers even knowing, let alone caring. I would cite CSS in DVD as a perfect example of this. Because of the nature of physical media, nobody notices the DRM there. I notice it, because I hate physical media swapping and so I rip all my DVDs to watch on my Apple TV
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:22 AM   #21
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@stustaff

Hey, it matters not to me, enjoy your DRM.....

In 20 years the formats for ebooks will be completely different than they are now. Many of the ebook stores will be long gone, and no one knows who will remain and what the format will be. With your DRM books, you cannot convert them. You can only read them on devices that are made for that format, and DRM scheme.

I remove DRM from all books. I can put them on any device I choose. I can convert them to any format. In 20 years I can put my books on the latest device and in the latest format.

I certainly do not wish to argue with you, I have just been around long enough to see beyond the next few years. Reel to reel tapes, 78 rpm records, and 8-tracks are great. But today it's hard to find something to play them on. Digital (without DRM) can last a lifetime and beyond.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:23 AM   #22
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But all the reasons you gave none of them were true!

you basically applied a pile of assumptions and beliefs to try and make me see why DRM isnt a good thing but none of them apply to the modern Epub DRM.

Im not saying you shouldnt check DRM to cover yourself against all the things you said but they just dont apply.

What do you feel are the risks with the Sony/Adobe etc DRM?

fact is my DRM 'restricted' Ebook is less restriceted than the actual HB that it was cheaper than.

If i buy the new Lee child HB can my family all read it at the same time? - No
Can i email it to my dad to read? - No I could post it but that would cost more money
If i lose it do i have a backup stored somewhere? - No

do you see what Im saying the DRM product I bought is better for me and thats why I am happy to pay for it with DRM
*Sigh*

The same risks that all DRM has, in that it does nothing but adds extra layers of complication to a system that does not need that complication, and does not benefit from those complications. Take out one part of the system and it all goes down. No authorisation of your reader, your files no longer work on that reader. Software to authorise goes down, you can't authorise the reader, files are useless. Get a new computer and the software doesn't work for some reason, files are useless. The authorisation process ties your reader to the software, your books to the reader and so on and so forth. You take out one leg on this donkey and the whole burro is falling to the ground. You wouldn't accept the same ridiculous notion with a paper book, would you? Why do you accept it on a digital file?

It's 2010, am I really arguing against DRM in this very year? Is that what I'm actually doing? Seriously, I think I might have gone back in time or something.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:24 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Moejoe View Post
No, it's you, definitely not me. But, hey, go ahead and enjoy paying to be restricted. It's obvious you are the target audience for DRM, and just another example of why this whole book mess isn't worth batting an eyelid over. Just another in a mob of of willing customers happy to let the content providers do whatever they like, whenever they like.

Me, I've stopped caring.
Clearly, you haven't stopped caring.

Also, you must realize that DRM is hardly the only way that people are restricted with purchases. You know, it's illegal to make a copy of a paper book!? WOW! No DRM and it's still "restricted."

Not only that, but did you know that all the DRM-enforced restrictions of Amazon's Kindle store are applied via legalese to the non-DRM books? So just because the technology isn't stopping you, doesn't mean your agreement isn't. And since everyone is a bastion of integrity we all know that nobody would violate such click-through contracts....

I just wonder how long it will be before there is a real serious uprising from consumers where they finally realize how many hundreds of thousands of contracts they've signed but never read, legally binding agreements they've entered that allow changes after the fact without notice, etc., etc. .. Though judging by the average consumer I'd guess that it will never happen. I would also guess that terms violations will never stop either, so maybe both sides are making futile efforts
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:46 AM   #24
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*Sigh*

The same risks that all DRM has, in that it does nothing but adds extra layers of complication to a system that does not need that complication, and does not benefit from those complications. Take out one part of the system and it all goes down. No authorisation of your reader, your files no longer work on that reader. Software to authorise goes down, you can't authorise the reader, files are useless. Get a new computer and the software doesn't work for some reason, files are useless. The authorisation process ties your reader to the software, your books to the reader and so on and so forth. You take out one leg on this donkey and the whole burro is falling to the ground. You wouldn't accept the same ridiculous notion with a paper book, would you? Why do you accept it on a digital file?

It's 2010, am I really arguing against DRM in this very year? Is that what I'm actually doing? Seriously, I think I might have gone back in time or something.
I too wish they werent DRM'd but to say they are worthless because of DRM is what I am arguing against!

The DRM I get on sony purchased books works for what i would use it.

the Ebook is more flexible than the HB right now.

that doesnt make me naive or stupid for being happy to go into this transaction with my eyes open and be happy with what I recieve for my Money.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:18 AM   #25
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Back to the original, subject. I never sold my books so the lack of resale is no problem for me. I've happily bought trade paperback books for €20 because I did not want to wait for the mass market paperback (usually €10-12).
I have paid €30 (prize + shipping) for a book with content I read on the web for free. I have paid €20 for novellas I did not even know I would like, just because I like and trust the publisher.
I know I am willing to pay these amounts both for content i like, and to support specific people that provide the content.
I have not bought books for €2, even though I might have been interested, because I did not feel like keeping it and to limit the amount of books I own a little bit.

Especially with current exchange range I do not see a problem with paying $15 for an ebook (with DRM I know I can remove) that I really like to read. $10 for books I am reasonably interested in. $6 is a price close to second hand, equivalent to two cups of coffee, a bottle of wine, and I am fully willing to take a chance on this price, depending on reviews. With a publisher like Baen, and others in webscriptions I am again willing to buy books I am not too sure about.

I have tried some $1 to $2 self-published works, but the time-investment so far in reading them seems not to be worth it. I am fully willing to pay more for books I know I will enjoy.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:53 AM   #26
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We're talking about entertainment here, for the most part, and the loss of a book isn't really that big of a deal in the long view.

What long view? Nothing is a big deal in the long view since you will eventually die.

I regularly by book that i read years later. With DRM you cannot trust that you will be able to read the books 10 years later for example. And you cannot trust that you will be able to buy the book in 10 years.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:11 AM   #27
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I dont think you understand how the DRM works. or I dont?
...
the computer can be deactivated via the sony software from any computer i log into, so a crashing computer does not cause me to lose '1 of my authorised devices'
Deactivating a device through the Sony software does not affect your activation count. If you activate 3 devices and deactivate all 3, your count used is still 3.

Don't believe me? Activate / deactivate your device 6 times. You can easily prove me wrong.

Robert
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:29 AM   #28
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Ebooks are definitely inferior to hard copy. When I buy a hard copy book, I own it. I can read it and then give it to a family member. I don't own any ebooks, despite 'buying' quite a few. With an ebook, you only get a license to read it. You don't own it and you don't have all the same you have with a hard copy.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:49 AM   #29
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Ebooks are definitely inferior to hard copy. When I buy a hard copy book, I own it. I can read it and then give it to a family member. I don't own any ebooks, despite 'buying' quite a few. With an ebook, you only get a license to read it. You don't own it and you don't have all the same you have with a hard copy.
But I can do that with my DRM ebook and regularly do.
Its why for me the cost is pretty good for my money with the ebook I am in effect getting 5 copies so all of my fam,ily can read the same book at the same time.
Can you do that with your hard copy? can you make a backup of your hard copy in case it gets lost? etc

the fact is both have restrictions and different restrictions suit different people.

but an Ebook imo is no more restrivted than a hardcopy.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:52 AM   #30
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Im no dismissing your opinion, however in my case Ebooks a not an inferior product at all!

In fact i am on mobile read because i prefer Ebooks and value their portability etc higher than a paperback.

An Ebook is worth more to me than a paperback.
An eBook is worth more to me than a hardcopy as well-because I can carry my library wherever I go.

And of course, a non-DRMed eBook is worth even more.
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