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Old 07-20-2006, 06:30 AM   #1
Kakyou
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Thumbs down iRex in violation of Credit Card agreements?

I have to say that I am not just a little disappointed with iRex's attempt at a webstore. They certainly don't seem to have worked out the kinks, but in the meantime they seem to be pushing for ways to generally abuse and alienate a fanbase for their product even before it really has a chance to get off the ground.

As with many of you I have opted to join iRex's "paying beta tester" group. And with most of you I have yet to receive any product. And with most of you, iRex accepted my order and payment weeks ago, and with most of you I have received little to no communication from them.

Doing a brief webseach I came across a few notes that iRex should certainly take note of if they want to stay in business, let alone outside of the courtroom.

The FTC website states that unless otherwise noted, you should receive your product within 30 days of placing your order. Placing a "4-6 weeks" disclaimer on their website after the fact does not meet this condition. It must be stated clearly at the time of the transaction. Maybe I missed something when I used the webstore, but I do not remember seeing any such disclaimer before or at the time of purchase.

It also notes that payment is made at time of shipment. Depending on your credit card company, payment before shipment can be against the credit agreement for the vendor. My check of card vendors shows that Visa does not allow pre-billing unless it is for deposit and must be agreed to by the purchaser. MasterCard does not allow for pre-billing unless it is noted in the terms of sale. Amex allows pre-billing provided you receive your goods before you statement is due.

I'm not saying we should all start writing letters to our credit card companies or cancelling orders, but I can't help but be disturbed by the half hearted, amateurish way that iRex is putting into its first and only product. Those on this website obviously are dedicated to the future of eBooks and the perception and proliferation of electronic media. I think we hope for the same attitude for product vendors who are joining this market (with some notable black sheep in the past) and It just bugs me to see such a sloppy attitude with customer service.

It's easy to deal with delays. You just beef up your communication. That cant' be hard with a customer base in three digits. If you can't deal with even a hundred orders a week, you are just not trying. If you are a month late on product shipment after repeated product delays, a well drafted email to a group of rabid enthusiasts (who will be either singing your praise or cursing your shoes all over the internet when this is said and done) doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

We are giving iRex free advertisement. But we will determine the tone and content of that advertisement. It's disappointing that such a forward thinking company doesn't seem to grasp that.

Anyway, I continue to wait with the rest of the riffraff. Continue to drool over photos of the lucky few. Continue to check my email in vain hopes. Continue to think of other things I can do with the money should I go ahead and write a grievance to my credit card company.

Last edited by Kakyou; 07-20-2006 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:38 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakyou
Anyway, I continue to wait with the rest of the riffraff. Continue to drool over photos of the lucky few. Continue to check my email in vain hopes. Continue to think of other things I can do with the money should I go ahead and write a grievance to my credit card company.
Actually I find amusing that the accepted your order to Japan without checking if they were able to ship. Also it is stupid the machine is going to do a world run from philipiness to amsterdam and back, in the name of market efficiency.

Acording http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/ILiadwners you are now in the borderline, user 592 has been shipped but users 600... haven't
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:39 AM   #3
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what's your point?
you want to sue them?
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:40 AM   #4
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Er, by the way, it is off-topic, but it is not easy to find an english-speaking ebook enthusiast from Japan. Do you know how to upload content to a Toshiba CT100 ebook? The so-called "sigma book".
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:56 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakyou
The FTC website states that unless otherwise noted, you should receive your product within 30 days of placing your order. Placing a "4-6 weeks" disclaimer on their website after the fact does not meet this condition. It must be stated clearly at the time of the transaction. Maybe I missed something when I used the webstore, but I do not remember seeing any such disclaimer before or at the time of purchase.
I hate it when people think US laws & regulations apply everywhere in the world.

(Other than that, you are basically right, up to some extent.)
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:01 AM   #6
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You got there first Ali.

The FTC can say what it likes, but it only applies to the US. You would be better off looking for the body that does the same role in the Netherlands or for the EU.

So-far as I am aware 4-6 weeks is still the standard shipping time for most companies in the EU.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:05 AM   #7
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Actually, to be precise.

This is not a legal matter (at least not yet). You can't sue because someone is late delivering an order. Not even for charging your credit card too soon.

You *could* sue if you were charged, did not recieve your product and all attempts at contact were ignored (or actually you just complain to your card company, get reimbursed and the card company sues).

Now credit card companies might have grounds for sueing if they find out thet they have been billed innapropriately, or if thier vendor agreements are being violated. And it doesn't matter what the local laws are. Visa and Mastercard are global companies. If thier agreements are being broken, they can deny service anywhere in the world. They have to provide the same service globally, and therefor require the same level of service from all of thier partners.

So this isn't a matter of law. It's a matter of treating your customers with respect. When has that ever been against the best interests of a flegling company?
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakyou
So this isn't a matter of law. It's a matter of treating your customers with respect. When has that ever been against the best interests of a flegling company?
well, given irex's history of 'customer relationship', you're not really surprised, are you?
from my credit card being charged to the iliad being shipped, it took 10 days. not that bad.
i agree, charging your cc before shipping the goods is not a 'nice move' from irex, but not that a big deal to me (since we know that the iliad actually exists )
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:28 AM   #9
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To complain to your credit card company you need to be sure you have a basis for complaint. Otherwise they _will_ tell you to go away. Basing your complaint on the FTC rules outside of the FTC sphere of influence will get you such a reaction.

While there wasn't a disclaimer before, there was a statement that there was no stock available. As such I am pretty sure that as you were aware of that when you ordered they then get a "reasonable" time to get stock in on top of the 4-6 week shipping. which as I stated before is pretty standard within Europe. (It now says 3-5 weeks btw)

A quick scan via google shows that visa does in fact allow pre-payment for certain types of transactions including e-commerce.

Also I would be pretty sure there are additional clauses which state that unavoidable events outside of the sellers control can extend delivery (like say the factory burning down, or their freight agent, delivering directly to Germany rather than to the netherlands, then to Germany and causing the shipment to be impounded by customs)

As for their customer relationship. While I havn't been happy with some (most) of their answers regarding delays, they have always been quick and courtious in replying to my emails..
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arivero

Acording http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/ILiadwners you are now in the borderline, user 592 has been shipped but users 600... haven't
This is sadly not correct - I have order #500, but as I am in the US I have been told to expect shipping next week - I assume 5pm, Friday July 28
Who knows what schedule other countries are, but outside Europe there are delays.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by oliverbogler
Who knows what schedule other countries are, but outside Europe there are delays.
I think it is only Irex fault - UPS, DHL etc delivers next day usually. As before, Irex have shortage of devices and a company which delivers it, have nothing to deliver...
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
It also notes that payment is made at time of shipment.
This is a commonly held myth. FTC regulations certainly allow for payment before shipping on credit card orders.

There is also a difference between putting an authorization on a card, which holds the funds, and actually posting the charge which draws the funds.

If you're upset, your course of action is:

1. Contact iRex, cancel your order and ask for a refund. Keep copies of all your correspondence.

2. If that fails, contact your credit card company and dispute the charge. You will have to prove you attempted step 1 and show your work.
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riocaz
You got there first Ali.

The FTC can say what it likes, but it only applies to the US. You would be better off looking for the body that does the same role in the Netherlands or for the EU.

So-far as I am aware 4-6 weeks is still the standard shipping time for most companies in the EU.

I'm guessing the US law would apply if iRex has a 'presence' in the US. Somewhere on this forum someone mentioned they have an office in San Jose.

But I'm not a lawyer. OTOH, I'm guessing if they had an office in London, UK law would apply not Dutch law, right?
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by VillageReader
I'm guessing the US law would apply if iRex has a 'presence' in the US. Somewhere on this forum someone mentioned they have an office in San Jose.
They have a US representative, in San Jose, but from his email, he does not appear to be an iRex employee.
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbogler
They have a US representative, in San Jose, but from his email, he does not appear to be an iRex employee.
Interesting. If you're talking about the guy named Jeff, he seems to know what's going on with the iLiad at least -- he gave me the price ~2 weeks before anyone else, and the "not June, but probably July to B2B folks" info about a week before iRex released it....
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