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Old 01-05-2010, 05:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by pking36330 View Post
So while I'll have to agree that you've quoted valid science about flourescent lighting causing headaches and eyestrain, it has NOTHING to do with the types of LCD displays in laptops/netbooks/MIDs/iPods built in the last few years. Science mis-applied is worse than myth. An recent LCD device is a perfectly acceptable ereader IF all the other attributes meet your needs (battry duration, size, cost, OS, etc.), but the 'eyestrain' factor is not a valid criteria. All I'm saying is to justify your e-ink purchase on valid factors (I'm still in the market for one because of the battery duration).
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Originally Posted by charleski View Post
Yes it is. The majority use compact fluorescent lights with the same mains-related flicker.

Your citation from Wikipedia is irrelevant.

Don't argue for the sake of arguing.
Notice the bold I added to my quote and yours. The wikipedia citation is extremely relevant for new LCD devices. You'll have trouble tracking down and finding a new CCFL backlit mobile device, so while you believe me to be arguing for the sake of arguing, I think you aren't facing facts.

Again, despite the lack of factual evidence that e-inks reduce eyestrain compared with LCDs, I'm in the market for an e-ink device because of the value I place on battery duration of the devices with e-ink. I can prove they use less power while you can't prove they cause less eyestrain. Step away from the myth.

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Old 01-05-2010, 06:07 PM   #47
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No, CCFL's are still commonly used. In 5 years, sure, you'll have a vast-majority of devices using LED lighting, but that's simply not the case today. CCFL's use AC (often via an inverter, for laptops and other non-mains devices) and generate a flickering light.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
No, CCFL's are still commonly used. In 5 years, sure, you'll have a vast-majority of devices using LED lighting, but that's simply not the case today. CCFL's use AC (often via an inverter, for laptops and other non-mains devices) and generate a flickering light.
I think there is a misconception about new LCD devices being used as ereaders (i.e. iPod Touch or iPhone). These devices are equipped with LED backlights and so they suffer no flicker...none. Almost every 16:9 display mainstream laptop that shipped in 2009 were LED backlit LCDs (Sony, Dell, Asus, Apple, etc.), as were most of the smaller LCD displays (Blackberry Storm, HTC smartphones, Archos 5 and 7, etc).

So my point is, since LED backlit LCDs are now the norm for NEW devices, and because they cause no flicker, the prejudice against LCDs as a good ereader aren't supported by the facts.

Can you name any NEW 4" to 10" display device that isn't an LED backlit LCD (unless e-ink or some exotic OLED that we'd all love but can't afford)?
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:46 PM   #49
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Only in the last few months have they begun to appear in what I'd call mainstream laptops, and they are still not present in most smaller devices because of the design issues involved.

It's far from automatic at this stage what you're getting, and it needs to be checked on a device-to-device basis.
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:10 AM   #50
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Only in the last few months have they begun to appear in what I'd call mainstream laptops, and they are still not present in most smaller devices because of the design issues involved.
If you mean 'Only in the last 14 months' as the 'last few months' then I agree. But 14 months of full production is a LONG time in 'gadget time'.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment that they aren't present in most smaller devices. I listed several newer devices I would consider smaller (iPod Touch, iPhone, Blackberry Storm, HTC smartphones, Archos 5 and 7) that do have LED backlit LCDs and thus no flicker (and thus not the eyestrain menace reported widely in this forum). If you meant even smaller devices than these (watches?), then no, I don't think I'm aware of anything smaller than a 4" display that has LED backlit LCDs, and smaller than that would severely limit their capability as an ereader anyway.

But I love your last statement and that has been EXACTLY what I've been trying to state:

Quote:
It's far from automatic at this stage what you're getting, and it needs to be checked on a device-to-device basis.
We should al agree that emerging LCD devices shouldn't be automatically disregarded as ereaders since the emerging trend for the last full year has been to equip them with LED backlit LCDs that produce NONE of the flicker inherent in earlier LCD backlighting designs and thus are equal, ney, superior to e-ink in display characteristics because of the lack of page-turn flicker, page after-effect ghosting, and clarity of displayed text. These devices STILL lose the race with e-ink on power management, and I see that as the major discriminator consumers should evaluate to determine if an LCD device would meet their needs as an ereader. They do meet my needs but YMMV.

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Old 01-06-2010, 04:13 PM   #51
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Your timescales are off, only high end devices have been using LED lighting until a factory conversion in the middle of this year which has lead to mainstream laptops from roughly September having access to LED-lighted panels.

And plenty of people read on smartphones, etc.
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Old 01-06-2010, 05:01 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by DawnFalcon View Post
Your timescales are off, only high end devices have been using LED lighting until a factory conversion in the middle of this year which has lead to mainstream laptops from roughly September having access to LED-lighted panels.
The Mac LED Cinema Display (a LED backlit LCD) was sold starting Nov 08. Big TV LED backlit LCDs were all over the retail outlets all year in 2009. Almost ALL Sony, Dell, HP and Asus 16:9 laptop displays for the ENTIRE year of 2009 were LED backlit LCDs, so how is my timeline off.

All of the new smaller display gadgets coming out now are LED backlit LCD because the manufacturing process is ultimately cheaper because of a very low failure rate of LEDs compared to other backlighting sources. And we are talking about a new, yet to emerge device in this thread, so its safe to assume that it will use the prevailing latest affordable tech and go with an LED backlit LCD.
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Old 01-06-2010, 05:26 PM   #53
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Yes, for several years the high end has been moving to LCD's. And "almost all" has been a distinct minority in sales terms (what? you think the high end models sell that well? No, they are - like graphics cards - testbeds and PR items...)

LED's are still considerably more expensive than CCFL - very few devices in the netbook market are LED for example - and assuming in any way that a given device will be LED at this point in time is simply dreaming.

No, we need the technical specs before we can say one way or another.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:48 AM   #54
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My SmartDevices Q7 ($211.12, shipped) has a 12 hour battery life. After that, I can run another 8 hours off (4) AAs, or 24 hours off a Li-Ion battery pack. (The Q7 can charge off USB while you read.)
Thank you, Andy!
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Old 01-09-2010, 08:18 AM   #55
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This thread seems to have wandered from the point. What about Blio?
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:27 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by pking36330 View Post
Almost every 16:9 display mainstream laptop that shipped in 2009 were LED backlit LCDs
Maybe in the future, but not now.
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Although LED backlight penetration in monitor panels was only 1.4 percent in Q3 09, current panel maker plans indicate that the penetration could reach 22 percent in Q3 10
http://www.eetasia.com/ART_880059172...T_319d4c40.HTM
Note that the 22% is a target from producers looking to upsell their market.

Neither the Archos 5 nor Archos 7 use LED backlights - those are only specified for the Archos 9 and 10 netbooks.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:29 AM   #57
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Okay, so the Nexus One has a OLED screen.

Ars has reviewed it, but the relevant image is this:



It's the center one - notice it's lighting is considerably less harsh and washed-out! (The left is CCFL lit, the right is very early LED-lit)

So yea, modern LED lighting makes a massive amount of difference, but the settings made are equally important - you can adjust OLED brightness downwards *far* more than CCFL's, and the Nexus One has a light sensor which auto-adjusts.

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Old 01-18-2010, 02:16 AM   #58
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Well, yeah, but I kinda think the sales pitch was uncalled for as well. It's one thing to comment on a product and your thoughts about it, but when you are in charge of marketing for a competing product and post an advertisement, that's just not cool.
He didn't post an advertisment. He posted about the product and then compared it to his product. That is not an advertisment and should be ok.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:24 AM   #59
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Try a calculus text.

Try an accounting ledger. Now make corrections in the ledger.

Try an aerodynamics book.

Try taking notes in the margins of a Thermodynamics book.

Try drawing alternative attack plans in pages you insert into Heinz Guderian's "Panzer Leader." (It's a text book used at the US Army War College, written by the guy who invented Blitzkrieg.)

That's a day's work for my Q7.

Andy

What you are asking for here is not an ebook reader but a laptop in my opinion. I don't think most people expect to do their accounting on their ebook. Nor would most people IMO want to take a lot of notes or creating new thing in their ebook reader.

It is just my opinion, but I think most people would want an ebook reader to read books. Saying that the devices are pathetic because they are not a full fledged tablet or laptop PC is not appropriate IMO.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:56 AM   #60
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Blio, by the way, should be up and running very soon. Seems to be a free suck-it-n-see deal. Neil
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