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Old 12-17-2009, 05:29 PM   #46
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No - you can sell paperbacks at a profit because the hardback sales have already paid the up-front costs of producing the book. What people seem to want are eBooks released simultaneously with the hardback, but at paperback prices. That's a pricing model that just doesn't work.
It seems to be working for Baen books, because that's their model. I can understand the publishers wanting to charge the same as hardback for their ebooks, when that's the only print edition available, but there's no justification for not dropping the ebook price to the paperback price when there's a paperback out. In my opinion, the real question for the publishers is whether selling ebooks at a lower price point cuts into the hardback sales, and if so, by how much. If it's negligible, then the publishers are really just doing this to "show Amazon who's boss".

I don't buy hardbacks, and I've got enough of a backlog that I can usually wait until the paperback is out (or go to the library). But it really steams me when there's an old book, with an ebook release from 5 years ago that is still at hardback prices, and the paperback was released and is already out of print. The only way I'll buy that is if I can get it from an ebook store when it's on sale so my effective price is down around the $5-7 range (i.e., paperback price).
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:25 PM   #47
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A few news snippets from MediaBistro's eBook Summit. Plus, adverts may be coming to an eBook near you.
You've got to be freaking kidding me.

I can tolerate ads in comic books and magazines. But I will not, under ANY circumstances purchase a novel or something similar with any sort of ads in it. Period.

That's like paying for a piece of toilet paper in a bathroom stall. You just don't do it. Or looking up in a public restroom and seeing an ad for Taco Bell plastered on the back door.

Every time I see product placement I get jarred out of the experience.

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John took a sip of his Pepsi can. He smiled, feeling refreshed. "Now, about that dead body in the hall..."
I'll gladly pay more than $9.99 for a book to have it advertising free. I'll even pay more for DRM free. But I refuse to pay hardcover price for a digital edition that isn't anywhere close to the same keepsake as a true hardcover.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:30 PM   #48
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I'll gladly pay more than $9.99 for a book to have it advertising free. I'll even pay more for DRM free. But I refuse to pay hardcover price for a digital edition that isn't anywhere close to the same keepsake as a true hardcover.
That's a good trap they set, isn't it? They threaten us with something as disgusting as ads in books, and then we're happy to pay more just to avoid that! They make something as evil as drm, just so that we'll be willing to pay to get rid of it... Genius masterminds they are!
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:31 PM   #49
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I won't even buy the bestsellers at $9.99. I'd rather wait a couple of months and borrow it for free from the library. Most of the new ebooks are coming out in DRMed ePub which makes it a snap to liberate and convert for my Kindle. Sure the library pays some kind of licensing fee but there is no additional cost to me.
Am I reading this right? You borrow ebooks from the library to strip the DRM and keep the book for yourself, free of charge?

That sounds perfectly legal. And most of the reason why retailers are terrified of the digital movement. *sigh*

Last edited by jaxx6166; 12-17-2009 at 06:49 PM. Reason: "perfectly legal" = sarcasm
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:40 PM   #50
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That's a good trap they set, isn't it? They threaten us with something as disgusting as ads in books, and then we're happy to pay more just to avoid that! They make something as evil as drm, just so that we'll be willing to pay to get rid of it... Genius masterminds they are!
It really is a beautiful thing. LOL.

The most I'm willing to pay for a digital book would be $15...tops. That's usually about what I end up paying for a Hardcover after store markdown, member discount and mastercard rebates.

Anything more and they're just jerking us around.

I think the scam...er..price scheme Itunes sets is perfect for the digital revolution that hit the music industry. $0.99 for DRM, $1.29 - $1.99 for DRM-free.

Personally, I don't have a problem paying that price for a single. Usually when you'd buy them in stores you'd pay around $4.99 or $5.00 when they were still releasing CD singles. The upside of that though was that you used to get liner notes and extra tracks and stuff.

But now with the more advanced mp3 players on the market, you can at least sort of get that experience again. Ever play with Coverflow on iTunes or an Ipod Touch?? I think now we can actually read liner notes and stuff on the iPods directly, but I'm not sure how it's done.

And their current price setting for albums $9.99 to $14.99 is usually what I paid for physical CD's anyway. And I can at least back them up and save them to a CD Collection..DRM or no DRM. The upwards of the price point usually includes digital liner notes and extra tracks.

It's kind of the way I'd like to see eBooks go...mainly because I'm a sucker for Behind the Music and the cheesy EPK features that they include on DVD releases.

I'd hope the future of eBooks involves practical pricing. Cuz I damn sure won't be paying $29.95 for an eBook that I can get at 1st Edition, 1st Printing (the ones people collect) for $19.95....or even $24.95.

The problem is we're all still the "early adopters" of this new technology. I'd hope that in three to five years we'll be doing better than this cluster we're in right now.

I'll go back to lurking after adding this one last rant.

I think it's fair that authors deserve to get paid for their work, they do this for a full time job. Just like we go to our office or whatever we may do...They sit and write and expect to get paid. They have families to support too. Insurance to buy. Retirement to work for. That sort of thing.

I think publishers are the ones who need to take their heads out of their collective rear ends though. There's no reason for executives to be paid millions of dollars. Period. That's my stance for just about everything. Our power company here in SFL (FPL) just hiked our rates because the legislature requires them to make somewhere near 40% profit on all electricity. It's a trend being seen worldwide in this recession. We're not making as much money as we used to...let's see how we can regain profitability.

If their sales aren't making up what they used to the answer isn't in raising prices. It's in lowering cost. How do we lower cost?

EBOOKS!!!!!! POD!!!!! It's the wave of the future, and I hope they all realize it soon.

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Old 12-17-2009, 06:54 PM   #51
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Ignoring for the moment the question of what a fair price of an eBook should be. If you look just strictly at what Amazon is doing - selling goods at a loss in order to establish market dominance, then that certainly seems to fit the definition of "predatory pricing".

BTW I remember Wal-mart doing the same thing in small towns across America, and after driving the competition out of business, Wal-mart would invariably raise prices.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:56 PM   #52
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Jim makes a good point. Which is part of the reason why I dislike Amazon so damn much.

And that's why I'm rooting for the nook to see success.

But unfortunately, I'm also a victim of their predatory pricing. I bought Xmas presents at B/N and then came home. Since I'm a glutton for punishment, I went onto AMZN to see if they had the same thing...they did. At half the price I paid for it at B/N. And that $60 was just too much of a loss for me to pass up. Sorry B/N. My total return at B/N totaled close to $150. Ended up saving $75 on three gifts. I feel like I have to do penance now.

Forgive me father, for I have sinned.

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Old 12-17-2009, 07:16 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by jaxx6166 View Post
You've got to be freaking kidding me.

I can tolerate ads in comic books and magazines. But I will not, under ANY circumstances purchase a novel or something similar with any sort of ads in it. Period.

That's like paying for a piece of toilet paper in a bathroom stall. You just don't do it. Or looking up in a public restroom and seeing an ad for Taco Bell plastered on the back door.

Every time I see product placement I get jarred out of the experience.

I'll gladly pay more than $9.99 for a book to have it advertising free. I'll even pay more for DRM free. But I refuse to pay hardcover price for a digital edition that isn't anywhere close to the same keepsake as a true hardcover.
Lots of pbooks have ads in them-at least lots of the books I read, but I enjoy reading old books. Of course these are ads for books-I'm not sure I've ever seen a book with an ad for furniture, groceries, etc. But what do you think the 'other books by this author' page at the front of many books is, if not an ad? And lots of old books (both hard & soft cover) had explicit ads at the back of the book.

So, IMO it depends on the ads-what they're for & how they're handled. Do it right & I've got no problem with it. Do it wrong & I'll quit buying books from that author/publisher/store. (Depends on who inserts the ads-and it's possible that, with ebooks, each copy could get a different set of ads, possibly tailored to the buyer's preferences, however those might be determined. Hopefully without too much invasion of privacy.)
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:16 PM   #54
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These publishers are crying wolf. I say call them on it. They have a choice: get on board with the new technology or get left behind. They're doing a pretty good job of showing they want to be left behind. How long will it take for an upstart techie-based publisher to take over their business?
...

Why do you think publishers are trying on blatently illegal landgrabs for electronic rights for older books? They want that answer to be "as long as possible", and are working to achieve this via legal means.

And I'd be happy to have adverts. In a book which was $0.00.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:22 PM   #55
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Lots of pbooks have ads in them-at least lots of the books I read, but I enjoy reading old books. Of course these are ads for books-I'm not sure I've ever seen a book with an ad for furniture, groceries, etc. But what do you think the 'other books by this author' page at the front of many books is, if not an ad? And lots of old books (both hard & soft cover) had explicit ads at the back of the book.
I don't mind the Wizards of the Coast format of advertising. The ones where they would excerpt from Book 2 or another work they have out.

I don't really consider that "new" advertising, as most of the ebooks I have show "also by this author" and so forth. The article mentions something similar to web adverts, except "better"

and THAT is what I have a problem with.

I'd also have a problem purchasing a book and opening it to find an explicit ad in the cover unless it was something I purchased that was explicit in itself. If I bought an erotica novel and there was a dirty ad in it, so be it. That sort of stuff is expected. But to find it on Pride and Prejudice or Tolstoy. That would be like an egregious sin. It's also something that I'd expect to see in True Detective or maybe another form of pulp magazines. Advertising is best served there.

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Old 12-17-2009, 07:32 PM   #56
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WoTC style advertising? Is that the one where they pull all the PDF's of their previous versions of the game offline, and make the PDF's of the new one avaliable only to people subscribing to a for-pay service?

Snarky? me?
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:37 PM   #57
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WoTC style advertising? Is that the one where they pull all the PDF's of their previous versions of the game offline, and make the PDF's of the new one avaliable only to people subscribing to a for-pay service?

**Chuckles**

Good one =) Ever since the company had a falling out with Weiss/Hickmann I've lost a lot of respect for them. Then again, their product quality has also substantially gone down as of late. If it wasn't for MTG:O I'd sever ties with the company entirely. But they've already gotten so much of my money.

I do kind of miss the predictable fluff they produce though. Or at least the magic it first enthralled me with all those years ago.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:42 PM   #58
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Sorry for the derail, their idioticy in recent years is just a particular sore point for me given 3.0 and the OGL and the explosion in RPG sales which followed that. I'm a fan of Pathfinder, and have worked (and am working) on multiple OGL-based RPG's. (Although to be fair, they're not all d20, I'm part of a project based on the Mongoose Publishing OGL-released Traveller-system RPG)

Of course, ironically, Dancey (the man who shaped 3.0 and the OGL) is currently gutting White Wolf...and I can't disagree that D&D 4e (and its terrible sales) is going to crush the market in the longer term.

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Old 12-17-2009, 07:42 PM   #59
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Well Amazon knows what they're paying the publishers but when I see them selling a "$30" hardcover book for $15 I have to assume that they're paying the publisher less then $16 for that hardcover. It makes sense to me that the rest of the full price would be to pay for the old brick and mortar distribution model.

Now if they don't have to print the physical books, ship them, inventory them, pay warehouse overhead costs and they no longer have to take the loss of returns then I have to believe that all of that is at least $6 of cost per physical book on average.

The publishers will never convince me that they're making less net profit off of a $9.99 ebook then they are off a best seller hardcover sale from Amazon unless they want to open their books.

Amazon has done nothing but set a viable price that they can justify to their customers.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:53 PM   #60
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Oh my god, oh my god,

Amazon is trying to away my reading choices, by offering me books for $9.99. it's the end of literature as we know it.

Oh my god, what am going to do?

As if it wasn't bad enough trying to stop the government from taking away my $800 a month health care premiums.

Oh my god, I need another tea bag
Simple solution... Buy a K2 and buy more Kindle ebooks! That's what I did.

Derek
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