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View Poll Results: When you buy a book, are you buying the content, or only the media?
When I buy a book, I'm buying the content, and moving that content between media types [physical/electronic] is covered 53 88.33%
I buy a specific media format [physical/elec]. If I want the content in a different format I have to re-buy it. 7 11.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-25-2009, 10:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by opitzs View Post
I don't know (american) law well enough, however

When you buy a book, you buy a medium with content. In German it is a "Sache", it is a property.
When you buy an ebook, you obtain rights to read something, e.g. a book, but you get no property. Otherwise DRM would not be possible.
Under US law some 'rights' are a type of property, which can be bought, sold, transferred, donated, etc. Whether or not the right to read a book is such a type has yet to be tested in court AFAIK.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:09 AM   #17
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It seems so counter-intuitive that the source of the end-result (the electronic copy) should have any legal baring on legality, but clearly it does.
I think it's a practical application of the principal that you don't have a right to a better quality product based on your ownership of a lesser quality one. A poor analogy but, if I buy a scratched & damanged CD at a swap meet for 10 cents, that would be worth $10 if in perfect condition, ownership of that low-quality CD shouldn't give me the right to download a perfect copy of it. I bought it cheap knowing it was damaged, so I didn't buy any right to an undamaged copy.

OTOH, that's a little bit of a stretch as the principal has been applied to cover all 'copies from a different source' rather than only where there's a substantive difference. That's why I think it's a practical matter-too hard to draw the line regarding what's a 'substantive' difference.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:05 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ZacWolf View Post
What are the legal/copyright implications of replicating a physical book library, into eBook format.

I understand that doing a pure scan of your own books should be covered under fair use just like ripping copies of your own tapes/disks of music/video.
In the US, yes. It depends on your countries laws though.

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But what about using other, non-DRM, electronic sources for eBooks? If you have already bought the paper copy, and just want an electronic copy for your OWN use, does the source of that copy make a distinction?
The main issue here is whether the source is authorized to distribute the copyrighted material, not whether or not you already own a paper copy. If the source is not licensed to distribute, then they are committing copyright infringement, regardless of what rights you have.
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:38 AM   #19
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So as for own thoughts, I don't feel bad about the scans I have made of old, out of print, aquarium books I borrowed at the library. I think it's the only way I can be resonably certain I have access to them in 10 years time. I can't even buy them used.
So you think it is alright to borrow books from someone else and then make copies for yourself without the author's permission or payment? Is this only on books that you feel you won't have access to in ten years time? Or any book that you want?

BTW, if a book is still in library circulation somewhere in the world, you should be able to borrow it through interlibrary loans. I know that I have gotten a couple of books that actually were from a library in England and I am in the US.
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:29 AM   #20
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In my opinion, if you own a hard-copy of a book you should be able to make an electronic version. But if you don't own the original hard-copy, you give it away or sell it, then you are no longer entitled to keep any copies and should destroy them. So no you should not borrow your friends books or library books and make your own personal copies with no intention of keeping the originals.

Again in my opinion, you can only claim "fair use" if you keep the originals to prove you own it.

That being said, I doubt anyone would go after an individual that did do this unless they were blatant about it or sharing their ill-gotten gains on the internet.

The original author of this thread was only talking about converting his library to digital. If he is a US citizen, I'm fairly certain he could claim "fair use" in this circumstance. Though I think it would be a time consuming ordeal.

On a related topic, if copyrights didn't last so long this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Personally I think copyrights should be no more than 20 years for most works and 5 to 10 for computer programs. You want to talk about orphaned works.

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Old 11-26-2009, 02:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by scveteran View Post
So you think it is alright to borrow books from someone else and then make copies for yourself without the author's permission or payment? Is this only on books that you feel you won't have access to in ten years time? Or any book that you want?

BTW, if a book is still in library circulation somewhere in the world, you should be able to borrow it through interlibrary loans. I know that I have gotten a couple of books that actually were from a library in England and I am in the US.
Funny, that you think it's alright to request a $5 book from England, which likely costs the library (the taxpayers, actually) more than that to ship to the US for your reading pleasure, and then ship back.... Plus, think of all the pollution generated to bring the book to your doorstep.
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Old 11-26-2009, 05:09 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by scveteran View Post
So you think it is alright to borrow books from someone else and then make copies for yourself without the author's permission or payment? Is this only on books that you feel you won't have access to in ten years time? Or any book that you want?

BTW, if a book is still in library circulation somewhere in the world, you should be able to borrow it through interlibrary loans. I know that I have gotten a couple of books that actually were from a library in England and I am in the US.
Well, if I printed out those scans and kept them on paper instead of as a digital file, it would be completely legal. The intent of the law is to stop illegal filesharing. Since the books are Danish, and somewhat obscure, it's highly unlikely I would be able to get them from anywhere else.

Edit, added: This is why I stated that the law doesn't really take books into account. As I said, I can completely legally make a paper copy of any book I borrow, provided I do it myself, and for my own private use. I don't really think there is much difference between keeping a scan of the books rather than a paper copy - not in a sense that would matter. As much work is involved, as well as data loss. It's not like copying a digital music file. And I've not put it up for download.

Last edited by Ea; 11-26-2009 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ZacWolf View Post
My take away is that the judgment against mp3.com is pretty much the gold standard in the US. That being "fair use" covers SELF manipulation of content between formats (ripping, scanning), but does NOT cover "acquiring" (file sharing) different media types based on ownership of a physical copy of the content. It seems so counter-intuitive that the source of the end-result (the electronic copy) should have any legal baring on legality, but clearly it does.

I think the whole issue of loaning/borrowing is the one key point where book publishers differ from music distributors; and I think it will be very interesting how that all plays out in application of recent legal arguments that have been tailored to the music/video industries. The fact that we've had libraries since we've had writing may be the sticking point in jury deliberations regarding ebook cases.

Thanks!
I don't think there is much difference, even over the 40 years I've been making copies, other than the behaviour of enforcing institutions. I remember signs in copy centers both at my job and at store-fronts, maybe Kinko's, that said making copies of copyrighted materials was prohibited. As far as I know, only the copy-center staff would refuse certain sources. As long as I did it myself, no one bothered.

I don't remember such signs in libraries, but the libraries themselves may have acquired, probably through charity or endowment, the right to allow copies.


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Old 11-26-2009, 01:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by rireed3 View Post
I don't remember such signs in libraries, but the libraries themselves may have acquired, probably through charity or endowment, the right to allow copies.
Libraries in the UK always very strictly enforce "fair use" limits for copying - one chapter from a book, or one article from a magazine or journal.
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rireed3 View Post
I don't remember such signs in libraries, but the libraries themselves may have acquired, probably through charity or endowment, the right to allow copies.
Which libraries? Public libraries don't, AFAIK, allow free copying at all-and if it costs even 10 cents/page then I doubt if people copying entire books is a problem. It's been a few years since I was in a university, but it seems to me like they allowed free copying for students, so maybe that's the libraries you're thinking of. I don't recall the signs either, but am pretty sure they would have noticed (and objected to) one student 'hogging' the copier for an hour or two.
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Old 11-26-2009, 04:11 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by etienne66 View Post
The original author of this thread was only talking about converting his library to digital. If he is a US citizen, I'm fairly certain he could claim "fair use" in this circumstance. Though I think it would be a time consuming ordeal.

On a related topic, if copyrights didn't last so long this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Personally I think copyrights should be no more than 20 years for most works and 5 to 10 for computer programs. You want to talk about orphaned works.
Actually, that's only part of his question. The other part was about downloading a digital version of a book he owns.

As for the length of copyrights, that's more complicated than you'd think although in general I agree with you. In the US, one of the 'classic' Xmas movies is "It's a Wonderful Life" produced by Frank Capra. It was filmed in 1946 & was a financial flop. It didn't become popular until the copyright expired & independent TV stations started showing it because they could do so cheaply. After it became a 'classic' somebody bought the expired copyright & was able to get it renewed (don't know how-it was my impression that once they were expired, they're expired, but IANAL). After they started charging for it again (late 90's IIRC) TV stations stopped showing it so often.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes books aren't popular when first published. To be fair to the author therefore, the copyright should be long enough to give them more than one try. Is 75 years too long? IMO, yes. But I don't think 20 years is too long. (And I'm definitely against the idea that copyrights should be renewable.)
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Old 11-26-2009, 04:41 PM   #27
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but the original use of copyright was to stop replication of the material - people using printing presses to make new copies. So the container and the information in that container are yours to use as you see fit apart from duplicating it for sale to other parties.

That's why DRM gets up my nose. If I can't lend it to friends as I would a traditional container (a paper book), I'm just getting ripped off.
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Old 11-26-2009, 04:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ZacWolf View Post
Howdy, I'm new to mobileread!

I have a question, that may be a touchy subject. I did a couple of searches but didn't get any hits...

What are the legal/copyright implications of replicating a physical book library, into eBook format.

I understand that doing a pure scan of your own books should be covered under fair use just like ripping copies of your own tapes/disks of music/video.
IANAL (though even if I were a lawyer, how could I pass up the chance to write "ANAL" in all caps like that?) but I believe this to be correct. RIAA vs. Diamond Multimedia said that "space-shifting" between formats is fair use. Which means it's all right to rip CDs, and DVDs that do not have any encryption on them, and to scan your own books into e-books too.

But when someone else facilitates the copy for you, things get a little messier.

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But what about using other, non-DRM, electronic sources for eBooks? If you have already bought the paper copy, and just want an electronic copy for your OWN use, does the source of that copy make a distinction?
From what I have heard, legally it does make a distinction. Though a lot of people feel that it's still morally right, and will happily use peer-to-peer sources to download an "illicit" e-copy of the p-book they bought and paid for.

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This all sounds like the original mp3.com, which allowed you to place a CD into a local cd-rom drive, where it would scan the CD ID, and then grant you access to an electronic version that they had ripped. The courts rules that this was a violation of copyright, and shut down mp3.com
Yep. Basically, MP3.com was co-opting the rights that the commercial companies should have had, and making money off of it (through ads). It's a bit of a fine distinction for a lot of people to be able to make; here's an article that explains the merits so you don't have to wade through the whole legal opinion.

Interestingly, mp3tunes.com, the site started by the guy who originally founded mp3.com, offers an mp3 locker service where people can upload their own mp3s and access them remotely (rather than the site ripping the mp3s itself). That seems to have existed unchallenged for a couple of years now.

So, allowing people to do their own fair use = good; doing it for them = bad. When it comes to ripping mp3s, this is not so much a problem. Unfortunately, paper books are very not-digital, and "ripping" them usually ends up being more trouble than the average consumer is willing to go to for himself.

Quote:
I guess it all boils down to what the consumer feels they are buying [content], vs. what the distributor feels they are selling [media].

Have there been any recent news or lawsuits specific to ebooks?
Over on the Baen Bar right now, in the "Toni's Table" newsgroup/forum, there is a discussion going on about the possibility of Baen allowing a free e-book download with purchase of the paper book (or vice versa). It's largely theoretical at the moment, as any method that would allow Baen to do it would probably add enough expense to keep it from being worthwhile.
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Old 11-26-2009, 05:41 PM   #29
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It's a bit of an abstract thought process, but really not that hard to follow. If you procure the document illegally, it's illegal.
Why is that true and what does it mean for a document to be illegal?

I cannot see how identical document can be both illegal (whatever that means) and legal at the same time which will happen of you type in your paper book and produce an identical file compared to the one you downloaded illegally.
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:46 PM   #30
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I think it's a practical application of the principal that you don't have a right to a better quality product based on your ownership of a lesser quality one. A poor analogy but, if I buy a scratched & damanged CD at a swap meet for 10 cents, that would be worth $10 if in perfect condition, ownership of that low-quality CD shouldn't give me the right to download a perfect copy of it. I bought it cheap knowing it was damaged, so I didn't buy any right to an undamaged copy.
Interesting, as this concept actually does apply to software... For example, if you buy an older version of something at a yardsale, discount-bin, etc (even if the media is damaged). The "license" is the software not the media, so you can download the full software [often from the manufacturer], but more importantly it gives you access to a newer "upgrade-only" version. I actually do this all the time.

This is the problem it seems that each content "type" seems to have it's own legislation, which suddenly fails in the digital age...
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