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Old 03-16-2010, 02:58 PM   #211
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why don't y'all let Amazon give an official answer instead of mudslinging?
I sent a query to Amazon but did not receive an answer other than that they forwarded my email to Kindle department.
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:54 PM   #212
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:29 PM   #213
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cover images are everywhere in bookstores and newsstands. in many of them, cover images of magazines are much more liberal than the ones in the United States.

representational art in Islam while traditionally discouraged still took place several hundred years ago in the form of miniatures.

an example for a miniature from Iran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...tan_Palace.jpg

an example from the Ottoman Empire:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ith_dishes.jpg
To be fair, these examples are not necessarily representative of: a.) the view of the average Muslim or b.) the stand point of the fuquhaa', or Muslim Jurisprudents who codify Islamic law. That being said, while representational covers may indeed be a factor for the Gulf countries, I don't see it being an issue in Turkey, North Africa, or South Asia. I know from personal experience that bookstores in Pakistan carry books with representational covers. As a matter of fact, there are sub-genres of Urdu pulps which can have rather racy, James Bond-esque covers. Jasusi Digest comes to mind as an example.

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Old 03-16-2010, 04:36 PM   #214
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Pakistan and Bangladesh do not strike me as countries where the "average" person has a relatively large amount of spare money. Not saying that they don't, though.

You were in Pakistan. All that I see of it is from the news.

Are the people outside of the (Pakistan and Bangladesh) cities able to spend enough to buy a Kindle?

Even in the rural US areas a farmer can buy a Kindle. (If he doesn't have "10 women and have 250 grandchildren".)

Like me, he will think about what else he could use the money on. But Johnny or Judy Appleseed can do it with just a little savings in a week to a month, or two if needed.

A better way to say it is "what is the cost as a percentage of income for all nations?"

Is it easier for a farmer in Germany to buy a Kindle than a Pakistani?
Is it easier for a farmer in Italy to buy a Kindle than in India?
Is it easier for a farmer in Dubai to buy a Kindle than a Bangladesh?

Relative Per Capita Income Rates will make a difference.

It may have nothing to do with religion.

Economically, the farmer in Bangladesh may have more in common with the farmer in the Appalachian mountains. Just plain dirt poor.

I take your point (although agriculture in Dubai is something of a joke from what my wife tells me), but there is a strong middle class of businessmen and civil servants in Pakistan who are very education minded, English-literate, and would find a Kindle appealing (there is a stereotype of Desi men being gadgetohaulics). The case, again, is similar to that of India (there also being many call centers in Karachi). Pakistan is a much more viable market than Nepal or Bhutan in my opinion. There are also several African countries with Kindle access which I think would be less viable markets than Pakistan (and, it goes without saying, wealthy countries like UAE).

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Old 03-16-2010, 04:43 PM   #215
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No, I am not thinking of the Taliban, . I am thinking of even a relatively liberal country like Malaysia, where they just had a court decide that Christian newspapers cannot use the word Allah. And of Dubai where 2 people got locked up for kissing in public. The list is endless. Yes, there a a lot of rather liberal people in Muslim countries. But think of all the sex and politics in Western books. You really want to tell me that this would be welcomed by majorities in most Muslim countries? What if there was another picture of a religious figure in the books? A joke that would offend Muslims? I really think the only exception they could make without a major revamp of their offerings just for those markets are Jordan and Indonesia at this time. Even bankers have special offerings for Muslim countries, after all.

And what is more sensitive than culture, reading?
Bankers have special offerings for Muslim countries because the economic system of Islam is different than the laissez faire capitalism of the west.
That being said, there are a large variety of books for sale in the bookstores of Pakistan, complete with some racy covers (although these tend to be drawn rather than photographed). Given that people are able to operate bookstores without hindrance, I don't think people buying books on the Kindle device or on their computer would be an issue. Most of the fervor you mention is directed against DVD stores, but even this is primarily found out in the frontier, not in the major urban centers like Lahore.

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Old 03-17-2010, 01:02 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore View Post
Bankers have special offerings for Muslim countries because the economic system of Islam is different than the laissez faire capitalism of the west.
That being said, there are a large variety of books for sale in the bookstores of Pakistan, complete with some racy covers (although these tend to be drawn rather than photographed). Given that people are able to operate bookstores without hindrance, I don't think people buying books on the Kindle device or on their computer would be an issue. Most of the fervor you mention is directed against DVD stores, but even this is primarily found out in the frontier, not in the major urban centers like Lahore.

Luqman
From what I have read about these financial service offerings the difference mostly lies in the kind of investments offered, which are based on religious values. Meaning, for example, Playboy and pork producers are out (no matter how much money they can make).

I see your point regarding magazines on the street. But there authorities have easy control. They can take action any time they think someone has overstepped the boundaries. How do you control ebooks? That is why I believe everybody will be happy with the current system. People from muslim countries can easily find a way to buy Amazon ebooks and the Kindle. But everything remains a little hush hush instead of it being a bold announcement that would bring on a lot of unnecessary problems.
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:12 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
From what I have read about these financial service offerings the difference mostly lies in the kind of investments offered, which are based on religious values. Meaning, for example, Playboy and pork producers are out (no matter how much money they can make).
There's a lot more to it, actually. Islam strictly prohibits usury. So an observant muslim can't lend or receive interest payments. So there are now various Islamic financial instruments available, which allow believers to comply with Sharia law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

Incidentally, it's not clear how far the Judeo-Christian scriptures actually allow usury:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/UsuryScriptureList.html
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:58 AM   #218
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There's a lot more to it, actually. Islam strictly prohibits usury. So an observant muslim can't lend or receive interest payments. So there are now various Islamic financial instruments available, which allow believers to comply with Sharia law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

Incidentally, it's not clear how far the Judeo-Christian scriptures actually allow usury:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/UsuryScriptureList.html
That was the same way in Europe in the Middle Ages, Christians could not receive interest payments.

But your comments on banking actually supports my main point. Most of the ebooks on offer are not deemed suitable for Muslim values. Which probably is why Amazon does not offer them "officially".
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:20 AM   #219
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hello guys,

iam a muslim and working in United arab emirates (Dubai) i checked my self with them before i got my sony ereader, and they respectfully replied to my email that its all about the AT&T service and there is something about the library download and also the online newspapers services as its not available for the connection we have here, and finally and what the think is the most important is the warranty as they said that the dont have a middle east representative and this will cost both amazon and the end user a lot if anything happened to the device.

cheers guys
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:28 AM   #220
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HansTWN - i think you have a wrong idea and info about the arab world, and this is not the islam world we are talking about Middle east is arab world, and we have people from both religions islam or christian god bless them both, maaan we read, party, movie and we deal with banks :-) and you are talking about a few people who is religioned from both parties who would not take an finance or intrest on finance, we are more than 250 million and we do every thing ;-)
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:41 AM   #221
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HansTWN - i think you have a wrong idea and info about the arab world, and this is not the islam world we are talking about Middle east is arab world, and we have people from both religions islam or christian god bless them both, maaan we read, party, movie and we deal with banks :-) and you are talking about a few people who is religioned from both parties who would not take an finance or intrest on finance, we are more than 250 million and we do every thing ;-)
Actually, muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia, and India far outnumber you! And Iran, Turkey, and the countries in Central Asia are not Arabs. I was talking about governments and certain sections of society that do try to influence what the rest is supposed to be doing. Just like the radical Christians in the US which have made sure that network TV, beach wear, famous personalities behavior and other things are strictly controlled. And something so harmless as "baywatch" is considered racy. I was not suggesting that this is restricted to Muslims. But in general religion has a much greater influence in the Muslim world than for Christians and Buddhists. You will agree with me on that (in Europe probably 90% of the people go to church not more than once a year -- on Christmas, if then). I have been to Egypt, Jordan, Tunesia, and Algeria. I am not quite the "babe in the woods" you imagine me to be. Well, give it to me straight, what percentage of Muslims would find "Lady Chatterly's lover" acceptable? What do you think? Wouldn't they have to cut out a significant portion of their offerings?

I was just suggesting that it also maybe actually a matter of Amazon's cultural sensitivity that they opt not to sell. I don't see this as a criticism of the Muslim world, to each his own. If the AT&T argument was the only problem, why don't they sell in Singapore? Government's attitudes will definitely play a big role. And the question of why they have no agent in the Middle East still remains, there is a reason they decided not to. Which comes back to our original discussion.

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Old 03-17-2010, 09:18 AM   #222
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HansTWN - yes i agree with you my friend but even in the countries (not iran) you have mentioned they have also an open minded people along with the other people ;-) any way i agree with you for sure specially (why don't they sell in Singapore? Government's attitudes will definitely play a big role. And the question of why they have no agent in the Middle East still remains, there is a reason they decided not to. Which comes back to our original discussion) and by the way i didnt mean be my last msg that you are criticies islam i thought (Maybe) you dont know our area so i would clear some things for you,
am originally from jordan and most of the censored books in the world you will defnetly find in jordan ;-)

final word, i respect your openion 100% am sorry if you got me wrong i didnt mean any thing, and as for Lady Chatterly's lover (am talking about my country ofcourse) if you are above 18 no one will interfer or even ask about your reading,

cheers my friend and sorry again
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:48 AM   #223
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From what I have read about these financial service offerings the difference mostly lies in the kind of investments offered, which are based on religious values. Meaning, for example, Playboy and pork producers are out (no matter how much money they can make).

I see your point regarding magazines on the street. But there authorities have easy control. They can take action any time they think someone has overstepped the boundaries. How do you control ebooks? That is why I believe everybody will be happy with the current system. People from muslim countries can easily find a way to buy Amazon ebooks and the Kindle. But everything remains a little hush hush instead of it being a bold announcement that would bring on a lot of unnecessary problems.
You are correct in that Muslims are forbidden to invest in certain types of businesses such as the ones that you mention. The incompatability goes deeper than this, however. Islam prohibits "riba" or interest on loans as well as the buying and selling of debt. For this reason, modern finance capitalism is incompatible with the Islamic economic system on a fundamental level. Obviously, this does not prevent individual Muslims and Muslim countries from ignoring these prohibitions, just as the Catholic Church ignored its centuries old prohibition on usury. While I have no doubt that there a Muslim governments that seek this level of control over their populations, from the point of view of the Islamic Shariah, what goes on in the home and does not spill out into public is not the concern of the state. This was established during the early period of Islam. The problem is not one of religion per se; it's more governments with over-wheening authority using shallow interpretations of religion as a pretext to extend their control over civil life.

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Old 03-17-2010, 11:34 AM   #224
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:36 AM   #225
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I will step in and ask, politely, that discussions of religion, race, and creed be limited and preferably not carried out in MobileRead.
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I have no idea why this thread was resurrected but IMHO it should have stayed dead. It is seriously off topic. If you want to discuss the fine points of religious philosophy -- any religion -- I suggest you do it off-line or on a religion specific forum.
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