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Old 08-13-2009, 12:24 AM   #61
Ralph Sir Edward
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So, sure, the U.S. wasn't any better than any other country when it exercised its Manifest Destiny on y'all. Now, you're known for your space launching pads, a few quarts of WD-40 and the team that quite regularly whomps the behinds of the Washington Redskins (appropos, that). But it could've been worse: You could've ended up as the biggest casino in the northern hemisphere.
Not with all the Southern Baptists around here. Besides look at all the money Nevada made on casinos before the rest of the US got in on the act and cut the margins....


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It's impossible to say whether Texas would have been better off as independent or sovereign... that day is past, that ship has sailed. And now we all have to pitch together to build brand new ships, before we all get swamped. Dwelling on the past only serves to delay things and get our ankles wet.
Swamped? Ankles wet? This is Texas, if you've got water, hang on to it!



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So, how's about we just say, "The past is past," shake hands like men, and get back to work, eh? Shoulder-to-shoulder, all hands on deck, remember the Alamo, and all that? Wot? Capital!
You know, you could have said the same thing about Plessy Vs. Ferguson in 1950. But fortunately, some people didn't get over it.

But - serious question - why does a secessionist mindset in Texas bother you? The USSR split apart with the fall of communism. South American never clumped together in the first place. There is steady devolution in the United Kingdom. Belgium may eventually split. Look at the old Yugoslavia. Shucks, Texas is as big as France. If being in the US offered such great advantages, no-one would want to leave. If they do, there has to be an imbalance in the deal. I can see what's in it for the US, but what's in it for Texas?

As far as "the past is past", the following has occurred IN MY ADULT LIFETIME!. During the period of OPEC ascendancy - 1973-1981, Texas oil was LIMITED IN PRICE BY US LAW to $2.56 a barrel while OPEC oil was fetching $12, then $20, then $30, and finally $40 a barrel, so the blended price made gasoline and heating oil cheaper in the northeast US. No wonder we went around with "Drive 70 and freeze a Yankee" bumper stickers. What would you do if you were being paid as little as 7-8% of the open market price for your job, and legally prevented from getting the open market wage? Say, "thank you, let's do it again sometime."?

When the price of oil collapsed in the mid 1980's, so did the Texas banking industry. Not surprising, of course. Now when Wall Street went broke last year, the US government pumped trillions into them to keep them afloat. Down in Texas, that same government let 9 out of the 10 largest banks go broke and auctioned off the pieces. (I worked for the only survivor from 1980 to 1989. It survived because at the start of the bust, it had 60% of it's entire balance sheet in Treasury bonds. By 1990 it was inches away from failing anyway. Then the 1990 recession caused the Fed to worry about Citi and other New York banks, and created a steep yield curve to bail them out. It bailed out the only surviving Texas bank as well, as "collateral damage".) We could have done the same to those New York banks, but funny, we didn't. Unemployment? In 1986, Houston, Texas had an official unemployment rate of 20%. That was after 20% of the populace had moved out. That made an effective unemployment rate of around 40%. What was the Wall Street Journal take on it. "The Deflation in the Oil Patch helps keep the general inflation rate down." Thanks buddy. But don't worry, we Texans will have to pay our share of the Wall Street bailout.

So Steve, what has the US done for Texas in the last 40 years? And why do you think that the US is done using Texas?
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:42 AM   #62
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When the price of oil collapsed in the mid 1980's, so did the Texas banking industry. Not surprising, of course. Now when Wall Street went broke last year, the US government pumped trillions into them to keep them afloat. Down in Texas, that same government let 9 out of the 10 largest banks go broke and auctioned off the pieces.
No, it wasn't the "same Government". Ronald Reagan was not a socialist!
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:55 AM   #63
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I thought this was the key to understanding Texans.

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Old 08-13-2009, 09:57 AM   #64
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But - serious question - why does a secessionist mindset in Texas bother you?
Seriously? It doesn't... not a bit. If you still want to secede... if you still believe that being associated with the USA has done absolutely nothing for Texas, and never will... then secede already, and be done with it.

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So Steve, what has the US done for Texas in the last 40 years? And why do you think that the US is done using Texas?
Well, let's see: Selling oil in the US has brought Texas a few bucks. Hosting major components of our space program has brought Texas high-tech business, prestige, and a general impression of having a few more brain cells than many states, which has in turn provided further improvement to Texas' industry and economy. Without it, Texas would probably be just another struggling rust belt state, with a heavily industrial infrastructure that could no longer compete with other countries... and the day we no longer depend on oil and natural gas would be pretty much the end of Texas' economy.

So, yeah, I'd say the US has done a few things for Texas... more than it has for many of its other states.

And as far as "using" Texas: Ask those Texas oil barons if they're done using us to line their pockets, while we pollute the air with the inefficient vehicles they've "encouraged" automakers to sell in our country. I'd say Texas has used the rest of the country to its advantage, and done a fine job of it, thank you very (cough!) much.

So, to reiterate: If you want to give your high-tech industry back, and stop selling oil to us, my response is: Yes, please. What's taken you so long?
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:33 AM   #65
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Seriously? It doesn't... not a bit. If you still want to secede... if you still believe that being associated with the USA has done absolutely nothing for Texas, and never will... then secede already, and be done with it.



Well, let's see: Selling oil in the US has brought Texas a few bucks. Hosting major components of our space program has brought Texas high-tech business, prestige, and a general impression of having a few more brain cells than many states, which has in turn provided further improvement to Texas' industry and economy. Without it, Texas would probably be just another struggling rust belt state, with a heavily industrial infrastructure that could no longer compete with other countries... and the day we no longer depend on oil and natural gas would be pretty much the end of Texas' economy.

So, yeah, I'd say the US has done a few things for Texas... more than it has for many of its other states.

And as far as "using" Texas: Ask those Texas oil barons if they're done using us to line their pockets, while we pollute the air with the inefficient vehicles they've "encouraged" automakers to sell in our country. I'd say Texas has used the rest of the country to its advantage, and done a fine job of it, thank you very (cough!) much.

So, to reiterate: If you want to give your high-tech industry back, and stop selling oil to us, my response is: Yes, please. What's taken you so long?
Can we keep all the multinational corporate headquarters that came here because of the low taxes and small government mindset? Such as:
Exxon
AT&T
American Airlines
Frito-Lay, Pizza Hut (Parts of Pepsico)
EDS (Part of HP, founded in Dallas in the early 1960's, which also includes Compaq, founded in Houston in 1986)
The various surviving businesses of the Telecom Corridor (after the telecom bust)
J. C. Penny
Brinker International (Chili's restaurants, among other chains)
Southwest Airlines (founded here in 1971)
Dell Computer (founded in a U. of Texas dorm room)

Those are just off the top of my head.

Oh yes, we can sell the oil elsewhere....And we're sticking up more wind turbines here that any other state in the US (Despite T.Boone's bailing out)...
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:37 AM   #66
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Can we keep all the multinational corporate headquarters that came here because of the low taxes and small government mindset?
You can keep Exxon. The rest are comin' with us. They're all founded as American companies. We got space in Delaware for all of 'em.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:45 AM   #67
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Please note the "Unutterably Silly" tag and try to keep between the ditches on this. Civil War reenactment is down the hall to the right...
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:48 AM   #68
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Please note the "Unutterably Silly" tag and try to keep between the ditches on this. Civil War reenactment is down the hall to the right...
But I came here for an argument....
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:52 AM   #69
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Did not.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:58 AM   #70
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Did too!
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:11 AM   #71
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Please note the "Unutterably Silly" tag and try to keep between the ditches on this. Civil War reenactment is down the hall to the right...
(Whines....) But we don't have an Unutterably Stupid tag.....

(And where's my chocolate? we stop flame wars with chocolate around here.)
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:13 AM   #72
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Vivaldi?
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:17 AM   #73
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(Loading and firing the Trebuchet with a bagfull of choclate)

Incoming!!!!!!

*KER-SPLUNK*

There you go... chocolate all around.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:19 AM   #74
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Oh, sorry... wasn't my James West dandy with the Federales stance and twang obvious enough? Maybe I should go back to my private train, have a brandy and rethink this discussion a bit.

Let's see: I distract Ralph, while Artie sneaks behind enemy lines dressed as a bus boy from Coyote Ugly and infiltrates General Cavendish's headquarters, in order to steal the plans for the Giant Steam Man and prevent its being deployed on the Oklahoma border. Prodding Ralph causes him to threaten to secede, which draws Cavendish out into the open in order to prevent his plans from leaking out prematurely. Then, with the help of that mysterious masked man with his stoopidly-expensive bullets and his faithful Indian companion, we bushwack 'em and bring them to justice.

Mmm... nope... the plan seems to be working!

(Now... gotta find a woman to kiss, then punch her before she knifes me in the back... and then, back to business!)

Oh, look... there's chocolate everywhere...
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:02 PM   #75
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Vivaldi?
Arf! (which roughly translates into "stop yer whinin' and blabbermouthin' and just feed me some bacon - or chocolate")
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