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Old 07-18-2009, 12:57 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
But it has been both "reproduced" and "distributed", Tommy. I'm pretty sure that the copy on the Kindle would be illegal.
I think you are right, but I disagree that the owner of the Kindle did anything wrong. Remember intent is important in alot of the law. Unless the purchases knew that they were stolen (recieving stolen goods is a crime, although nothing was really stolen), which is very hard to prove.... would any reasonable person expect that a book they would buy from the Kindle store would be infringing copyright... I would say no.

Nothing I read says that people which have paid for a copy of a work that was infringed on have to return that work.. but only that the infringer may be liable to reimburse the copyright holder the money they made, plus possible fines. There can also be criminal charges in the case that the infringer is doing it for profit as opposed to for personal use or giving away free copies (such as uploading to a warzes site).

Did Amazon do the right thing by no longer selling infringing copies... yes. Did they have to go as far as to remove the book from peoples Kindles, probably not. They have not only removed the book but also reimbursed people the money. They didn't have to actually do that.

I think what really gets people upset is that Amazon removed the book from peoples Kindles. However this doesn't really bother me. I have more important things in my life to worry about.

Can we move on?

BOb
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:59 PM   #62
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I think the problem is that Amazon has shown that they CAN and WILL delete books from YOUR Kindle at THEIR discretion. That is one hell of a line in the sand or slippery slope and they've crossed it/started down it. It doesn't matter to me what the problem is. If Amazon has sold you an illegal copy of a book then by all means they should refund you your money and ask you to delete said copy. But to actually go onto your system and do it for you? Without your knowledge or permission? That is just wrong. No matter what the cause.
But don't forget that Amazon already go into your system and delete content without your knowledge or permission - with everyone who has a newspaper subscription. That's how old subscription content gets deleted.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:15 PM   #63
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Can we move on?

BOb
You are correct, Bob. We have all made our viewpoints on this matter clear, and further discussion is unlikely to change anyone's point of view.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:17 PM   #64
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But it has been both "reproduced" and "distributed", Tommy. I'm pretty sure that the copy on the Kindle would be illegal.
Please define what you mean buy "illegal copy". I have not seen it claimed before that books bought in good faith suddenly can be illegal to possess. Which laws are you using here?
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:20 PM   #65
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Please see my post #63 prior to yours.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:26 PM   #66
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But do you think that Amazon were right to remove the content under these specific circumstances? I do, because otherwise Amazon would have knowingly left illegal content on those machines, and that's plainly not the right thing to do.

Amazon routinely delete content from Kindles. Everybody who buys a Kindle knows this - or does if they bother to read their user agreement. You sound as though it's a big surprise. It really isn't, you know.
Forgive me, Harry, but I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

It's wrong and should be illegal for Amazon to make it possible for itself to remove content (illegal or otherwise) from your device.

If they did not go out of their way to make this technically doable, no lawyer in the world could get them convicted for not doing the impossible (i.e.: deleting your books).

- Ahi

Last edited by ahi; 07-18-2009 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by chaznsc View Post
In this instance, Amazon was protecting YOU from copyright infringement.
Respecfully, that is nonsense.

Amazon illegally selling you content does not automagically turn you into a copyright infringer. It is rather alarming that there are people who feel otherwise.

- Ahi
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:33 PM   #68
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Forgive me, Harry, but I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

It's wrong and should be illegal for Amazon to make it possible for itself to remove content (illegal or otherwise) from your device.

If they did not go out of their way to make this technically doable, no lawyer in the world could get them convicted for not doing the impossible.

- Ahi
But it is doable, and there's no backing out of that (which is why Amazon's apparently new policy confuses me). In-fact for all the kerfuffle about this, the Kindle is designed for the non-computer literate, which means as much as can be done automatically without user intervention should be done. So we get automatic downloads, updates and deletions, it's in the very nature of the device.

Further, if Amazon knows they sold me something they didn't have the right to, though actually the illegitimate publisher did, then they have an obligation to rectify the situation, that includes removing the offending content.

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Old 07-18-2009, 04:33 PM   #69
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But it has been both "reproduced" and "distributed", Tommy. I'm pretty sure that the copy on the Kindle would be illegal.
As a lawyer, I'd have to disagree.

It's doing the copying that is illegal under US law (in most cases, it's treated as a civil tort rather than a crime). Possessing the copy itself is not illegal as far as I know, and stolen property laws (in the US) address physical, not intellectual, property. I've never heard of a case of someone being convicted/civilly liable for merely having a copy of a copyrighted work, without any allegation that they were making copies themselves.

(Further, stolen property laws in most states require knowledge that the property is stolen, so merely possessing a copyrighted work that you paid for, believing it was legal, would not fit the definition of the crime.)

Last edited by whitearrow; 07-18-2009 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:41 PM   #70
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Further, if Amazon knows they sold me something they didn't have the right to, though actually the illegitimate publisher did, then they have an obligation to rectify the situation, that includes removing the offending content.
Amazon could also try to make an agreement about the sold copies with the current copyright holder and compensate him for the "lost sales". Then those copies would be as legal as when the customers had bought them directly from the current copyright holder.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:42 PM   #71
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I don't know why people are complaining about amazon in this. they should be focusing their hate on this publisher.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:52 PM   #72
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I don't know why people are complaining about amazon in this. they should be focusing their hate on this publisher.
Why, the publisher probably did an honest mistake. Nothing to complain over. It is Amazon that did the bad thing like removing peoples annotations and bookmarks.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:08 PM   #73
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Why, the publisher probably did an honest mistake. Nothing to complain over.
Ah well. A publisher distributing illegal copies "probably did an honest mistake" and Amazon who tries to settle that matter and refunded their customers is evil? Sorry, but this seems to be a strange point of view to me.

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It is Amazon that did the bad thing like removing peoples annotations and bookmarks.
Do you have any evidence that annotations and bookmarks were physically deleted on the device? Well, the bookmarks would be useless anyway without the ebook...
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:16 PM   #74
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Ah well. A publisher distributing illegal copies "probably did an honest mistake" and Amazon who tries to settle that matter and refunded their customers is evil? Sorry, but this seems to be a strange point of view to me.
Yes, the probably took the book from Gutenberg Australia and missed the fact that the rules are different in the US. A simple mistake.

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Do you have any evidence that annotations and bookmarks were physically deleted on the device? Well, the bookmarks would be useless anyway without the ebook...
There was a quote from the person it happen to in a thread here or in some blog pointed to from a thread.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:27 PM   #75
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Yes, the probably took the book from Gutenberg Australia and missed the fact that the rules are different in the US. A simple mistake.
If that publisher would be a private individual then i would say "Ok, shit happens", but isn't that publisher a company?

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There was a quote from the person it happen to in a thread here or in some blog pointed to from a thread.
I have to admit that if Amazon had deleted annotations from my device then i would be pissed off.
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