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Old 07-17-2009, 11:23 PM   #16
chaznsc
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Originally Posted by griffonwing View Post

Amazon stepped WAY out of line on this one.
Payments were credited.......there is no crime here. New ground? Yep!
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:30 PM   #17
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http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/17/a...s-unpersons-r/

So, the company selling the books decides they don't want to anymore, so Amazon is unselling them? And taking the books back remotely?

If you look off in the distance, there in that shimmer off the pavement, you can see Orwell pointing and laughing his dang head off.

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No, mobi had no right to sell them since 1984 and Animal Farm are not public domain in America and they don't own the rights to it. Amazon found out and removed them/refunded everybody's money.

The legit versions can be found here:

Animal Farm = http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Farm/dp/B001O1O7QC
1984 = http://www.amazon.com/Nineteen-Eigh...r/dp/B002A9JO9W

Books pulled for other reasons then copyright infringement don't get refunded and should still be accessible through "Manage Your Kindle". This happened with Stephen King's The Stand for a few months and Boyd Morrison's books.

Last edited by Sporadic; 07-17-2009 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:56 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by chaznsc View Post
Payments were credited.......there is no crime here. New ground? Yep!
There most certainly was a crime, it is called computer hacking. Amazon broke into customer's computers, which is what ebook readers are, and deleted information without the owners' consent. Kevin Mitnick spent five years in jail for that.
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:42 AM   #19
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It isn't hacking, and there were no breaking in of systems.

They have all the information of everyone's kindle on their servers. They want to get rid of something, they just mark a certain book as deleted, and then when your kindle phones home, it sees that it shouldnt have the book, and deletes it. No breaking in of systems. Also check your terms of service and end user license agreement. Shady but totally legal.
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:50 AM   #20
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I have no issue with what Amazon did in this instance, but I think they're underestimating the PR hit they are going to take over this. Even people I know who aren't paranoid are creeped out by the notion that Amazon can reach out and delete material from Kindles. This is a story that will not go away, it's taking on a life of its own, and it's going to ultimately hurt their market share. All IMO, of course. Just reading the tea leaves here.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:20 AM   #21
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I look at DRMed books as rentals. You don't own anything other than a restricted right to access the book in a narrowly restricted set of ways. Just like renting a video or anything else. Any time the seller likes they can yank the content. That's never been a secret, it's happened before and it will happen again. If you don't like it, don't rent books.
You might, and that's your privilege. I don't, I look at them as purchases. What's mine is mine to do with as I please, as long as I don't break real laws in other ways. I never have and never will sell or dispose of any of the ebooks that I buy, but I do with them what I please on my own private computer.

Regards, Alex
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:45 AM   #22
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Original story in New York Times

There's considerable discussion of this over at: Slashdot. It does seem that Amazon may have violated their own Eula.

According to OS News Amazon Uses up the World's Irony. (I didn't think the article was as good as the headline).
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by RobRittenhouse View Post
According to OS News Amazon Uses up the World's Irony. (I didn't think the article was as good as the headline).
Just wait and see how they'll remove your copy of "Fahrenheit 451"! :-)
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
You might, and that's your privilege. I don't, I look at them as purchases. What's mine is mine to do with as I please, as long as I don't break real laws in other ways. I never have and never will sell or dispose of any of the ebooks that I buy, but I do with them what I please on my own private computer.
I'm with you, Alex. That's why I periodically back up anything I buy from Amazon onto my computer and un-DRM them into open Mobi files. I would have never bought a Kindle if I weren't able to do that. But my reason was more to guard against hardware failures or obsolescence than against something like this.

I hope Amazon gets fried for this. Meanwhile, this prole will still be reading his mobi file!
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:54 AM   #25
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Think about it

Quote:
Originally Posted by moz View Post
Why the fuss? Amazon sold people a license to use the content in a limited set of ways, then withdrew that license. It's just like a rental car company ringing you to say the car you got isn't safe and sorry they don't have a replacement available. Kinda tough on you, but better than discovering exactly how unsafe it is. Getting whacked for a million bucks or so for each book (RIAA numbers) would hurt way more than losing access to a book.

I look at DRMed books as rentals. You don't own anything other than a restricted right to access the book in a narrowly restricted set of ways. Just like renting a video or anything else. Any time the seller likes they can yank the content. That's never been a secret, it's happened before and it will happen again. If you don't like it, don't rent books.
The fuss is this:

1. When you purchase a book at Amazon you click BUY not RENT.
2. The prices on Amazon are clearly reflect an ownership mentality. Had they been rentals they would be much cheaper.
3. The Kindle is a device you own outright. And since Amazon has this locked down tight they can at whim decide that you may not load any software on to it essentially making it a thin brick.

You like analogies? Think of this one: Today you buy a new computer with Windows Vista. 6 months from now Microsoft sends a signal to your computer telling it that you can no longer use it. Since you only lease Vista, they have that right. No what do you do with your 6 month old PC, 3rd party software and files?
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:01 AM   #26
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I honestly don't think you have a leg to stand on here.

Someone uploaded material which they did not have the right to distribute. Amazon removed that specific file from the machines which their database told them that it had been sent to, and refunded the customers' money in full. Amazon routines remove content from Kindles - this is well-known. Eg, they remove all subscription content that's older than a certain age.

What's the problem? Nobody's suffered any financial loss. If you want to "blame" someone, blame the people who uploaded the illegal content originally.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:15 AM   #27
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If you want to "blame" someone, blame the people who uploaded the illegal content originally.
True enough, but it's always more fashionable to hate on the big dog. Ask Microsoft.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:15 AM   #28
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Pirated copies of Orwell books pulled from Kindle
HILLEL ITALIE
AP National Writer

NEW YORK — A pirated e-book of "1984" led to an Orwellian moment for Kindle customers.

Users of Amazon.com's e-reader device were surprised and unsettled over the past day to receive notice that George Orwell works they had purchased, including "1984" and "Animal Farm," had been removed from their Kindle and their money refunded.

It was conspiracy time on the Internet. Big Brother's revenge? Pressure from the publisher? No, says an Amazon spokesman — the deletion of pirated copies that had been posted to the Kindle store.

"These books were added to our catalog using our self-service platform by a third party who did not have the rights to the books," spokesman Drew Herdener said Friday.

"When we were notified of this by the rights holder, we removed the illegal copies from our systems and from customers' devices, and refunded customers. We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers' devices in these circumstances."

Herdener's explanation differed from what Kindle users were told by Amazon's customer service, which made no reference to piracy, but implied that the removal was the publisher's choice.

"Published by MobileReference ... (the books) were removed from the Kindle store and are no longer available for purchase," according to an e-mail sent to customers. "When this occurred, your purchases were automatically refunded. You can still locate the books in the Kindle store, but each has a status of not yet available. Although a rarity, publishers can decide to pull their content from the Kindle store."

Herdener said the customer service statement was incorrect, and reiterated that the works were pulled because of legal issues. MobileReference is a digital publisher that offers a wide range of literary titles, although Orwell's books were not mentioned on the company's Web site as of Friday night.

An e-mail message sent to the publisher's owner, SoundTells, was not immediately returned.

The Orwell ordeal highlighted two concerns in the virtual world — that a book already paid for and acquired can be revoked by the long arm of an e-tailer (the Kindle operates on a wireless connection that Amazon ultimately controls); and the difficulty of stopping bootlegged texts.

The digital library is rapidly growing, but numerous classic works, from "Catch-22" to "Lolita," remain unavailable as e-books. Piracy has been one concern for rights holders, although illegal works have yet to have a measurable impact on sales.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:16 AM   #29
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I'm with Harry on this. When Amazon discovered that they -- and you -- had been made party to an act of piracy, they immediately set out to correct that problem. By recalling the pirated content which they had delivered to you, they protected you from any future repercussions for possession of the pirated content.

I'm saving my ire for the pricing issue. Publishers want me to pay hardback prices for eBooks, but won't give me the right to sell, rent, or give-away my copy. Therefore, the electronic copy has less intrinsic value than a physical copy.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by wodin View Post
There most certainly was a crime, it is called computer hacking. Amazon broke into customer's computers, which is what ebook readers are, and deleted information without the owners' consent. Kevin Mitnick spent five years in jail for that.
Hacking? Not in this case. Amazon isnt silly enough to break the law. In fact, they removed the books from the "library" and the kindle simply removed them. They were illiegit copies of the book.
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