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Old 07-17-2009, 08:50 PM   #31
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I had a feeling this was the case (illegitimate copy on Amazon). I'm thinking they need to at least attempt to screen books that are uploaded, and they wouldn't have this problem.

But I still have to chuckle a little at the fact it was Orwell's books.
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detayls View Post
I'm going to back off here. Some people are always going to be confused about what is true and what is not.

I leave it to these people to confuse you further.

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...l-than-others/
That's the article I read. I thought this concerned a legitimate purchase that the publisher decided to retract after the sale, and that Amazon deleted legally purchased books.

But, you're right, I am confused. Were these legal books or not?

Edit: Okay, looks like lilac_jive's post above me answered my question. Illegitimate uploads deleted by Amazon, that I have no problem with.
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carld View Post
That's the article I read. I thought this concerned a legitimate purchase that the publisher decided to retract after the sale, and that Amazon deleted legally purchased books.

But, you're right, I am confused. Were these legal books or not?
Not legal in the US. It would have been a pretty big deal if they (the true owners of the copyright) had released the ebooks for purchase in the US. It's public domain in Canada though. I think the writer of the article is confused. It's probably it was a publisher who put it up, but not the copyright holder.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ylsul View Post
Actually, the books DID get removed from their Kindles.
And the monies returned. If the publisher or author reneged on the concept, its not Amazon's fault.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:35 PM   #35
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I'm checking out the comments on this story on fark.com right now, and it's disappointing to see the number of people saying they'll never buy a Kindle because of this. But likely when they say Kindle, they mean every ebook reader.

*sigh* Seriously amazon, get your crap together and start checking ebook submissions. This is pretty bad press.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:39 AM   #36
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What happens if you have downloaded 1984 to your computer? Can you add it back to your Kindle?

Sorry if this has been answered anywhere else. I looked, promise.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:45 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilac_jive View Post
I'm checking out the comments on this story on fark.com right now, and it's disappointing to see the number of people saying they'll never buy a Kindle because of this. But likely when they say Kindle, they mean every ebook reader.

*sigh* Seriously amazon, get your crap together and start checking ebook submissions. This is pretty bad press.

I think it's unrealistic to expect Amazon or any distributor to verify that a publisher has the legal right to publish a book.

And FYI, the copyright owner of any book is the author or the author's estate, until the book goes into public domain. At least in the US.
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Old 07-18-2009, 03:21 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilac_jive View Post
I'm checking out the comments on this story on fark.com right now, and it's disappointing to see the number of people saying they'll never buy a Kindle because of this. But likely when they say Kindle, they mean every ebook reader.

*sigh* Seriously amazon, get your crap together and start checking ebook submissions. This is pretty bad press.
People should be angry with Amazon. Although I was leaning toward upgrading my PRS-500 to the PRS-505, I thought the Kindle would be worth looking into. After this episode, I will NEVER buy an eBook or an eBook reader from Amazon. If I buy something, it is mine; I should not be forced to return it against my will.

I will be sticking with Sony.

(And isn't that an interesting state of affairs? Who would have thought Amazon could damage their image to a point that makes Sony the better alternative?)
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Old 07-18-2009, 03:53 AM   #39
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Angry Amazon is not the Police

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Originally Posted by detayls View Post
This sort of thing happens every day everywhere on the planet.
Normally the Police / Bailiffs will come with a court warrant to confiscate stolen goods and return to there rightful owner.

If a car dealer finds out that he accidentally sold a stolen car then he can't come to your premises, break the garage and take the car back either.
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Old 07-18-2009, 03:58 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by detayls View Post
Who owns the Lexus? Where is the money that the scumbag's pal paid?
The rightful owner of corse. But as I said already: The rightful owner has to call the Bailiffs to get the car back. And certainly the Fence should not do it,

Martin

PS Hmm, strange why is Hehler called Fence in English...
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:10 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krischik View Post
PS Hmm, strange why is Hehler called Fence in English...
Because the word "fence" (as in a garden fence) is an abbreviated form of "defence", and "fence" as "a receiver of stolen goods" is thieves' slang dating from around 1700, with a meaning of receiving goods under the defence of secrecy.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:02 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by doreenjoy View Post
I think it's unrealistic to expect Amazon or any distributor to verify that a publisher has the legal right to publish a book.

And FYI, the copyright owner of any book is the author or the author's estate, until the book goes into public domain. At least in the US.
Well, in this case Amazon is the seller, so it should watch out for such things (for instance, utilize a database of copyrighted works, and check new submissions against it.)

But even if something slips through, reaching into your device and removing the file without your approval, is not the solution. It is in fact outrageous, and if viewed as "hacking," it is also criminal.

Again, unlike the theft of physical objects, the fact that honest purchasers have the files they paid for, does not deprive the copyright owner of their possession of the work.

If the copyright owner decides to go after Amazon for the profits of the sales, it would be fine. If the copyright owner, and/or Amazon decide to go after the infringing "publisher," it would be fine also.

But gaining access to innocent purchasers' devices, to remove content they have paid for, doesn't pass the smell test.

Funny, before I got my two Kindles, I actually had a much higher regard for Amazon, and made a large portion of my purchases through them. Now, because of stuff like this, I am more apt to explore alternatives.

Last edited by Sonist; 07-18-2009 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:43 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Sonist View Post
Well, in this case Amazon is the seller, so it should watch out for such things (for instance, utilize a database of copyrighted works, and check new submissions against it.)

But even if something slips through, reaching into your device and removing the file without your approval, is not the solution. It is in fact outrageous, and if viewed as "hacking," it is also criminal.

I'm not defending Amazon here, but a database of all copyrighted works would be extremely large, and IMO it's not realistic to expect a company to check all the material sold against it.

Also, that only covers "not in public domain" material. There is no way to verify that the publisher providing the material has the rights to publish the material. The author is the copyright holder of a work of fiction; authors grant a temporary (usually temporary) license to publish in certain formats (print, audio, electronic, serialization, etc) and languages to different publishers. Amazon would have no way of knowing that author ABC had granted their electronic rights to title JKY to company XYZ for the period of date n to date p. Some of my personal contracts are as short as 2 years. It's asking a lot of any company to track every author's contracts.

I'm not an attorney, but I do understand quite a bit about intellectual property, copyright, and publishing law. IMO Amazon has greater liability if they don't remove the illegal content from Kindles where possible. They have the means to remove content sold illegally, and this fact is widely known; it's likely any cease & desist letter Amazon received also included a demand to remove the content from any customers it had been sold to, if possible.

I agree it's creepy that they can remove content, and I personally don't want a company monitoring what's on my eReader. I put gawdawful first drafts of novels in progress on there, after all.

Last edited by doreenjoy; 07-18-2009 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:57 AM   #44
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After a quick look at Kindle DX firmware, it seems to be relatively simple to disable deletion part of "todo" processing and probably "device monitoring" part as well (Kindle seems to upload contents of /var/log/messages regulary). Although I cannot really be 100% sure as it's hard to test..

Is such hack would be considered OK by forum owners?
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:19 AM   #45
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I agree it's creepy that they can remove content, and I personally don't want a company monitoring what's on my eReader. I put gawdawful first drafts of novels in progress on there, after all.
They are not "monitoring what's on your eReader". They are sending a command to delete a specific book to those specific devices to which their database shows the book to have been have sent. This seems entirely reasonable to me in situations where it turns out that the material has been illegally sold.
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