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Old 07-17-2009, 04:20 PM   #16
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I'm one of the people it happened too. My nephew was reading 1984 for his summer reading for 8th grade. He was not finished and I was annoyed. Eventhough it was removed from my Kindle, my nephew is reading it from my PRS-505 I removed the drm and made an LRF copy and loaded it to my PRS-505 and then loaned my nephew the PRS-505! So Amazon removing the book from my Kindle and archive is a noot point since I have a non-drm copy on my computer! I would be really angry if I had to go hunt for a paper copy of the book so my nephew could finish it.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:21 PM   #17
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If you buy stolen property...

... you simply don't receive title to that property.

>> You're just kidding, right?

Imagine your shiny new Lexus sitting in your driveway as you fall asleep.

Some scumbag steals it.

The scumbag meets his pal in a bar and "sells" it to him.

Who owns the Lexus? Where is the money that the scumbag's pal paid?

Amazon has set itself up as the scumbag's agent in this case. When Amazon discovers the theft, it simply takes the money it paid to the scumbag and pays it back to the scumbag's friend. The original owner still owns the property.

How tough is this to understand?
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:23 PM   #18
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It was never yours...

>> Well - I'm not hysterical - any my copy of the Collected Works of George Orwell is no longer on my Kindle.

It was never your copy... you bought stolen property.

I am surprised that Amazon was able to erase it from your Kindle though.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detayls View Post
... you simply don't receive title to that property.

>> You're just kidding, right?

Imagine your shiny new Lexus sitting in your driveway as you fall asleep.

Some scumbag steals it.

The scumbag meets his pal in a bar and "sells" it to him.

Who owns the Lexus? Where is the money that the scumbag's pal paid?

Amazon has set itself up as the scumbag's agent in this case. When Amazon discovers the theft, it simply takes the money it paid to the scumbag and pays it back to the scumbag's friend. The original owner still owns the property.

How tough is this to understand?
That.

Though the 'reaching out to delete' is creepy. Still... That.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:29 PM   #20
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... you simply don't receive title to that property.
But it is not stolen property. So you cannot compare it to these laws.

If somebody print a paper book and sell it and later retract it since they did not have the rights to publish the book I as a book buying customer get to keep my bought copy of the book. And nobody have the right to enter my house and erase the letters in the book.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:38 PM   #21
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ahh.. so thats why I got the 99cent credit.. does this mean next time I turn on my wifi, the book'll be wiped?

Its still there, but I hardly ever turn on my wifi, even when I buy from the amazon store, I prefer to download to my computer and transfer that way so that I have a copy on my computer...
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:44 PM   #22
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ahh.. so thats why I got the 99cent credit.. does this mean next time I turn on my wifi, the book'll be wiped?

Its still there, but I hardly ever turn on my wifi, even when I buy from the amazon store, I prefer to download to my computer and transfer that way so that I have a copy on my computer...
Probably. I did not even know it was removed from my Kindle until I saw it posted on the Amazon Kindle board. Then I turned on my Kindle and sure enough it was gone from the Kindle and the archive. I turn on my wireless maybe 3 times a month the most but I have been in a class all week for work and have been demonstrating the Kindle to fellow classmates and have turned on the wireless for that purpose. Since I bought it for my nephew and had no intention of reading it again, I would have never noticed (read it in the 9th grade)
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:19 PM   #23
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Unhappy It was stolen just not by you...

>> But it is not stolen property. So you cannot compare it to these laws.

It was stolen by the seller on Amazon. You acted perfectly legally but did receive clear title to the copy.

Amazon was notified of the theft by the rightful owner of the copyright and thus had to take the stolen property back and recompense you.

You should be aware that only some of the books on Amazon are sold directly by Amazon. A large number are also sold by third-party sellers, who, among other things, swear that they have the right to sell the work.

In this case, the seller, not Amazon, was the thief. Amazon merely sold you something guaranteed by the seller and took a commission on that sale.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:29 PM   #24
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...

Imagine your shiny new Lexus sitting in your driveway as you fall asleep.

Some scumbag steals it.

The scumbag meets his pal in a bar and "sells" it to him....
Uhm, no.

The downloaded file, for which a purchaser PAID money to Amazon, does not deprive the owner of the copyright, of the use of the original file. If there were any damages, the owner is free to seek remedies from the publisher and/or from Amazon.

Moreover, you are absolving Amazon, which certainly makes profit on all sales, of any duties it has, relating to both the products it sells, and to it's customers. (Or, are you calling Amazon a "scumbag?")

I was actually reacting to your statement, that "Amazon was simply being generous by refunding the purchaser's money," which, with all due respect, is nonsense.

But your example is also wrong. More apt examples would be:

1. You visit a museum exhibit, and pay $10 for the right to use your camera inside.

Later, one of the copyright holders of the art, objects to their property being photographed by the public.

The museum tracks you down, takes hold of your camera, and surreptitiously deletes all photographs you took there. Then they refund your money.

2. You attorney prepares a memo for you and his secretary emails it to you.

Subsequently, the attorney's firm discovers a conflict, and doesn't want you as a client.

The firm sends you a refund check, and then hacks into your email, and removes the memo.

In both cases, such "hacking" will be a punishable offense.

Last edited by Sonist; 07-17-2009 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:40 PM   #25
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>> But it is not stolen property. So you cannot compare it to these laws.

It was stolen by the seller on Amazon. You acted perfectly legally but did receive clear title to the copy.
No it was not stolen and it was not theft. The correct term is copyright infringement.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:53 PM   #26
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I find this behavior outrageous. I expect Amazon to inform me before purchasing the Kindle that all electronic files purchased through their store are subject to their deletion. There needs to be full disclosure up front on this. At least that way I can understand that I don't fully own the device or its contents, that Amazon is the big chip in the sky that decides what gets to stay on it and for what duration.

Apple is doing a similar thing with iPhone apps, where they claim to have the ability and right to remove it from your phone.

As for the examples given to describe this behavior, Sonist's examples are much more appropriate, hence the justifiable hysteria.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:55 PM   #27
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I don't find it outrageous at all, and it's exactly the behavior I would expect. I do however agree that it should be disclosed that this is possible, and I'm betting it's spelled out in the fine print somewhere.

EDIT: actually I think I'll retract that. I thought we were discussing "stolen" or otherwise illegal content. That doesn't appear to be the case. Amazon should leave legitimately purchased content alone, doesn't matter if the publisher changes their mind.

Carl

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Old 07-17-2009, 07:10 PM   #28
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Smile For more see the New York Times...

I'm going to back off here. Some people are always going to be confused about what is true and what is not.

I leave it to these people to confuse you further.

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...l-than-others/
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Old 07-17-2009, 07:15 PM   #29
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I'm going to back off here. Some people are always going to be confused about what is true and what is not....
Please explain. Your statement is confusing me.
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:19 PM   #30
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It looks like publishers and ebook device creators are mishandling copyright and virtual product sales as much as the music industry did with napster in the early days.

When it comes down to it, people will simply hack/crack their devices and obtain materials from the pirate bay or elsewhere IF the rules surrounding a device or ebook are particularly draconian and unreasonable. If Amazon keep going in this direction I will be selling my Kindle/s and moving to an open source device like the techcrunch tablet.
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