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Old 07-29-2009, 09:38 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
It discourages casual sharing among non-friends. Friends won't care if their name and address (or whatever info is in the watermark) are included in a copy of the ebook.

Watermarking discourages casual sharing to strangers, without interfering with use of the book.
Yes, but will that matter compared to the easy sharing using peer-to-peer protocol or something else? People wanting to have the book and not wanting to buy it will be able to get it regardless having any friends that have bought the book.
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:14 AM   #497
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Publishers who want to keep DRM schemes that work as "one purchase = 1 readable copy" need to find a way to transfer ownership of that copy, because book purchases have always included the possibility of "I'm done with this; here, you read it next."
I don't think the right to transfer ownership is a necessity for ebooks. Rights should make sense in the context of the technology. My main concern is that I can use the book I buy in acceptable ways. That doesn't mean every use of a paper book should be transferable to digital. I can't put an ebook under a table leg to stop the table wobbling . I suppose I could use my $500 Sony Reader for that

Should we have the right to sell/give away a digital copy if we relinquish the 'original'?

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't make as much sense to me for a digital file as for a physical book. And I think digital pricing will be low enough that there will be no assumed right to resell something when you've finished with it. It will be a more 'disposable' product and attitude.

Are people selling their unwanted MP3s for 20c? I hardly see the point. I recently sold a lot of my books - because they were cluttering up my house. I didn't make any real money off them. The incentive to get rid of junk is not really there when an ebook is a megabyte or so of data.

Also, to sell ebooks would require some proof of ownership (and evidence that the original is being sold, and no copies made). Could that be done without DRM?

Would you buy secondhand digital files? I don't think I would. I'd rather pay a little more and get the 'original', especially if the original is priced low enough - and know that the author is getting their payment.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:07 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
Personally I find it very funny that those who kept arguing about theft not being the right term(which I agree with by the way, in legal parlance theft is a different thing to copyright infringement) seem happy to accept bootlegging as accurate when it is no more accurate than theft.
The problem is that "infringing copyright" is such a mouthful. Bootlegging is a lot easier, and can easily be used as a synonym, since it doesn't have it's own legal meaning, unlike theft or piracy.

However, if we want to avoid other terms entirely, how about using the rhyming slang for infringing copyright that I suggested a while back.

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...056#post469056

So - I hope no-one here has been ironing any eels lately?

Last edited by pdurrant; 07-30-2009 at 07:25 AM. Reason: added 'legal' to 'legal meaning'
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:11 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by djgreedo View Post
Should we have the right to sell/give away a digital copy if we relinquish the 'original'?

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't make as much sense to me for a digital file as for a physical book. And I think digital pricing will be low enough that there will be no assumed right to resell something when you've finished with it. It will be a more 'disposable' product and attitude.
I agree. I'd be happy to give up the right to resell ebooks if they were reasonably priced and DRM-free.

Perhaps that's a detail publishers would be interested in – switch to ebooks as there's no second-hand ebook market.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:12 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
The problem is that "infringing copyright" is such a mouthful. Bootlegging is a lot easier, and can easily be used as a synonym, since it doesn't have it's own meaning, unlike theft or piracy.
Err... yeah it does (producing illegal alcohol). It has also been used as a term for copyright infringement for many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg

I don't think "copyright infringement" is THAT much worse than "bootlegging" (or, hell, "intellectual property" come to that).
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:32 AM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga View Post
Err... yeah it does (producing illegal alcohol).
Yes - I meant (as mentioned up thread) a specific legal meaning - my fault in not writing clearly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga View Post
I don't think "copyright infringement" is THAT much worse than "bootlegging" (or, hell, "intellectual property" come to that).
Yes it is.
"I infringed copyright on a copy of Harry Potter."
vs
"I bootleged a copy of Harry Potter."

(or even "I ironed a copy of Harry Potter." )
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:45 AM   #502
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> claiming that "I should have free and unlimited access to any
> and all digital media because digital media has zero value and
> therefore should be free"

Mh? If you want to build a tight and intuitively acceptable moral case for "should be not free", then you should start with something that isn't free. Which is the content of course. Unlike replication, storage and delivery of "copies", production of content has non-zero cost. Once you conceptually divorce copy from content, you can state that one of them is free and the other one isn't. Once you develop a state of mind in which the previous statement makes sense, it is intuitively obvious why paying the creator makes sense too. Once you start making sense, you can educate others.

Ok, forget semantics. Does this make sense to you:

It came to be that PKFFW spake and said unto the people: "thou shalt not make Copies with thy computer for it is Sin!" And the people LOL-ed.

Then PKFFW spake once more and said: "thou shalt pay the Artist, for he is the source of much joy but he goes hungry!" And many agreed.

> I would think it would be logical to tackle a problem whilst it is still small

And how do you do that? To "educate" people on a problem that is too small to measure -now- You would need to blow it out of reasonable proportions for anyone to listen. And then depend on anyone not to notice you are doing just that.

Alternatively you could do:
1. Get a reality-based assessment how bad the problem is now.
2. Identify forces that are likely to cause the problem to grow worse.
3. Estimate, what damaging effect those forces would have.
4. Then work to neutralize the most-damaging forces.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:16 AM   #503
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To: Elfwreck

> It discourages casual sharing among non-friends.

Umm? Then I misunderstood. How then is "casual sharing among non-friends" different from piracy?

I understood differently - that "casual sharing" is basically point to point filesharing between friends and -not- seeding on a torrent network. For that, watermarking would actually work to some degree. I would be seriously deterred from sending a watermarked book to a friend unless I was -very- sure that file goes no further.

What watermarking does not do is prevent torrent seeding, or dicourage it, in any way. It removes the biggest reasons for people to -download- from torrent. Of course, publishing in plain text would do that even better. But in causing less lost sales, watermarking is better than copy protection.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:57 AM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga View Post
Err... yeah it does (producing illegal alcohol). It has also been used as a term for copyright infringement for many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg

I don't think "copyright infringement" is THAT much worse than "bootlegging" (or, hell, "intellectual property" come to that).
FWIW, in music circles, the term 'bootleg' can refer to perfectly legal recordings, such as band-sanctioned live taping and even officially released live recordings.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:24 PM   #505
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I don't think the right to transfer ownership is a necessity for ebooks.
The right to resell software has already been held up in court. I don't know that I'd think the right to transfer ownership of ebooks is a "necessity" as much as it's "the same as the right to transfer ownership of any other property."

While property rights over digital content may change, removing the expectation of the right to transfer ownership involves a drastic change in laws. It's not something that can be done with a simple handwaving, "oh, that doesn't apply to digital files." It would shake the foundations of the used computer industry, for one, if they couldn't legally leave files & software on a computer when selling it.

There's potential room for "you can only transfer ownership of digital files if you transfer ownership of a physical medium with them." Which, um. Just means more burned discs of files, or sales of flash drives loaded with books, music & software.

Quote:
Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't make as much sense to me for a digital file as for a physical book. And I think digital pricing will be low enough that there will be no assumed right to resell something when you've finished with it. It will be a more 'disposable' product and attitude.
Even "disposable" pbooks get shared.

Quote:
Are people selling their unwanted MP3s for 20c? I hardly see the point.
People tend to re-use mp3s in ways they don't re-use ebooks. I've got a handful of ebooks I re-read... but none I will re-read a dozen times in a week.

Quote:
I recently sold a lot of my books - because they were cluttering up my house. I didn't make any real money off them.
Did you sell them, or burn them?

The issue isn't as much "how can I profit off these books I paid for?" as "I'm done with this... what can I do so it doesn't go to waste?" The desire to transfer ownership has nothing to do with wanting to make a profit or recoup one's costs--it's tied to the notions of avoiding waste and maximizing use of scarce resources.

As long as laws are going to support the idea of digital files being a scarce resource, people are going to attempt to maximize their use. And if publishers would like to prevent swarms of illegal copies, they need to figure out how to allow and encourage legally transfered ownership of those files.

Publishers need to say, "when you're done with your ebook, this is how you give it to someone else"... otherwise, the ebook industry will continue to split into two groups: those who purchase at full price every ebook they read, and those who scrounge, and help others scrounge, for less-costly options.

And the scroungers (or pirates, if you prefer, although not all are pirates; some seek out CC and free promo ebooks) will continue to feel justified, because their actions are more parallel to how people deal with physical books.

Quote:
The incentive to get rid of junk is not really there when an ebook is a megabyte or so of data.
I have over 10gb of ebooks on my main hard drive. (Much of that is in scanned PDF format, yecch.) There's certainly plenty of incentive to clear out junk.

Quote:
Also, to sell ebooks would require some proof of ownership (and evidence that the original is being sold, and no copies made). Could that be done without DRM?
Why would it require proof of ownership? If I hold a yard sale, I'm not required to provide purchase receipts for the blender I sell. If I donate a box of kitchenware to a local charity, nobody asks for proof of ownership.

Why can't I donate my used ebooks to my local library... "here, you can now loan out these ebooks too?"

Quote:
Would you buy secondhand digital files? I don't think I would. I'd rather pay a little more and get the 'original', especially if the original is priced low enough - and know that the author is getting their payment.
If the original is priced low enough, and doesn't have annoying DRM, I'd be happy to buy that. If not, I'd be happy to purchase a "used" copy in a format I can use--especially if the "used" copy came with a review explaining why I'd probably like it.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:23 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by anappo View Post
> claiming that "I should have free and unlimited access to any
> and all digital media because digital media has zero value and
> therefore should be free"

Mh? If you want to build a tight and intuitively acceptable moral case for "should be not free", then you should start with something that isn't free. Which is the content of course. Unlike replication, storage and delivery of "copies", production of content has non-zero cost. Once you conceptually divorce copy from content, you can state that one of them is free and the other one isn't. Once you develop a state of mind in which the previous statement makes sense, it is intuitively obvious why paying the creator makes sense too. Once you start making sense, you can educate others.
So you take part of a single sentence of mine, quoted out of context and specifically not including the rest of the sentence, so as to try to imply that it is what I am claiming when in fact it is not and then try to build an argument against it?

Whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anappo
Ok, forget semantics. Does this make sense to you:

It came to be that PKFFW spake and said unto the people: "thou shalt not make Copies with thy computer for it is Sin!" And the people LOL-ed.

Then PKFFW spake once more and said: "thou shalt pay the Artist, for he is the source of much joy but he goes hungry!" And many agreed.
When did I ever say you can't make copies with your computer?

See that is your problem.......you keep taking one little part of what I say, disregarding the rest, try to apply that one bit to everything about my argument and then try to argue against it.

How about this then.........

And anappo spake and did say "thou hast every right to acquire any and all digital media for free so long as you call it a "copy", because digital media has zero value." And this semantic game appeased the people who did want digital media free and so they cheered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anappo
And how do you do that? To "educate" people on a problem that is too small to measure -now- You would need to blow it out of reasonable proportions for anyone to listen. And then depend on anyone not to notice you are doing just that.

Alternatively you could do:
1. Get a reality-based assessment how bad the problem is now.
2. Identify forces that are likely to cause the problem to grow worse.
3. Estimate, what damaging effect those forces would have.
4. Then work to neutralize the most-damaging forces.
Or alternatively you could use logic to fill in those parts that one can not assess through data.

Logically, if people believe all digital media has zero value and should be free then many of these people(if not all) will be unwilling to pay for it correct?

Logically, the more people that believe all digital media should be free that there are, then the less people who believe otherwise that there must be correct?(there are, afterall, a finite number of people on the planet)

Logically, if the group of people who are unwilling to pay for digital media is growing then the group of people willing to pay for it must be lessening(discounting those new people being born if we assume current trends will continue with these new people) correct?

Logically, if that trend continues there will come a time when no one is willing to pay for digital media correct?

Now, whether or not you believe that scenario is likely to happen makes no difference. Logically, that is what will happen if left unchecked. So in my opinion it is worth looking at ways to prevent the problem from becoming worse now rather than later.

Having said all that, here is how I see your reply(if there is one) going.........

Blah blah blah blah.......how can I intentionally screw around to make it sound like PKFFW is saying something he isn't.......blah blah blah.........how can I quote out of context in a way that makes PKFFW's argument seem different to what it is and weaker than it is..........blah blah blah........how can I fixate on one sentence to the exclusion of all else so as to again twist PKFFW's argument into something it is not...........blah blah blah........how can I keep an argument going simply because I like arguing....blah blah blah...........


So, I'm done responding.

Cheers,
PKFFW
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