Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-21-2009, 02:12 PM   #316
carld
Wizard
carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,678
Karma: 3698469
Join Date: Dec 2007
Device: Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, Droid Razr Maxx HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
Amazon directly charges and profits from people downloading the content. Amazon sells the content. Amazon is not "blind" to the content, it's not as if it's encrypted content they have no way to look into. So Amazon is quite responsible for distributing copyrighted material without permission.
As does any content distributor, and they all operate the same way. Copyright violations are removed when discovered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
Sure, the uploader is responsible too, but (in my view) less so, especially if he/she uploads content that is PD where he/she lives and just overlooks that he/she is implicitly giving permission to Amazon for selling it in the US (something which, anyway, he/she has no right to do, so Amazon should not just trust it). And it can be argued that the copyright infringement on Amazon's part was unintentional and good-willing, but it's still there.
So when someone uploads a copyright video to an online video site they are less responsible for the copyright violation than the site itself? It doesn't matter, so far as I know, that there is money involved in the transaction.
carld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:13 PM   #317
carld
Wizard
carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,678
Karma: 3698469
Join Date: Dec 2007
Device: Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, Droid Razr Maxx HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
So a user downloading content from P2P isn't expected to to be able to tell the difference between a legitimate distributor and a rogue individual. So if that user turns around and shares the same file back out, everything is OK?
Amazon isn't a P2P torrent site, other than copyright violations being possible they aren't even remotely alike.
carld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:14 PM   #318
Shaggy
Wizard
Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,293
Karma: 529619
Join Date: May 2007
Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG
Quote:
Originally Posted by carld View Post
Nope, that's an entirely different thing.
No, it's the exact same situation.

Someone is getting content from unknown sources without verifying if that source is authorized to distribute or not. They are then turning around and re-distributing the same content themselves. If it turns out that the content is unauthorized, then they should be able to just remove it without being held legally responsible.

Which did I just describe, the Amazon situation, or P2P?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:16 PM   #319
carld
Wizard
carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,678
Karma: 3698469
Join Date: Dec 2007
Device: Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, Droid Razr Maxx HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
No, it's the exact same situation.

Someone is getting content from unknown sources without verifying if that source is authorized to distribute or not. They are then turning around and re-distributing the same content themselves. If it turns out that the content is unauthorized, then they should be able to just remove it without being held legally responsible.

Which did I just describe, the Amazon situation, or P2P?
Sorry, you're wrong. You're trying to say that just because the possibility of a copyright violation exists in a retail store it justifies the use of torrent sites to upload/download with impunity. No, sorry, that's just not right.
carld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:16 PM   #320
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 63,374
Karma: 41542799
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
So a user downloading content from P2P isn't expected to to be able to tell the difference between a legitimate distributor and a rogue individual. So if that user turns around and shares the same file back out, everything is OK?
I'm afraid I can't answer that question since I've never used a P2P system. Does a P2P client allow the user to specifically choose who to download content from, by name, like Amazon shows you the name of the publisher of a book? If so, then yes, I'd say that if the user were to download content from someone claiming to be a legitimate distributer of that content, then the end user could not reasonably be held accountable for any copyright infringement.
HarryT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:17 PM   #321
Shaggy
Wizard
Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,293
Karma: 529619
Join Date: May 2007
Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG
Quote:
Originally Posted by carld View Post
As does any content distributor, and they all operate the same way. Copyright violations are removed when discovered.
ISPs do not sell their user's content, they just host it.
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:22 PM   #322
Shaggy
Wizard
Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,293
Karma: 529619
Join Date: May 2007
Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I'd say that if the user were to download content from someone claiming to be a legitimate distributer of that content, then the end user could not reasonably be held accountable for any copyright infringement.
In the Ayn Rand case, it was a random user uploading the content, with no verification that they really were a legitimate distributer. Yes, that's exactly how P2P works.

So in your view then, Jammie Thomas should not be held accountable.
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:23 PM   #323
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,142
Karma: 4792399
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by carld View Post
So when someone uploads a copyright video to an online video site they are less responsible for the copyright violation than the site itself? It doesn't matter, so far as I know, that there is money involved in the transaction.
I am not a lawyer, but in my local (Spanish) laws it matters indeed whether there is money involved or not. Sharing copyrighted content without intent of profit is legal (or so has been ruled at least once), selling unauthorized copyrighted content is undoubtedly illegal. The fact that there is money involved is crucial.

But anyway, who is more or less responsible was not the main point, and it would depend on the circumstances and subjectivities.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:27 PM   #324
Elfwreck
Grand Sorcerer
Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Elfwreck's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,142
Karma: 24387938
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Clié; PRS-505; EZR Pocket Pro, PRS-600, Kobo Mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
They do have one. You have to fill in a form with such things as tax details, bank account details, etc, on it, sign it, and fax it back to Amazon. Your books don't appear in the Kindle store until you do this.
Signed is not notarized.

Notarized means the person's identity has been verified by an authorized, neutral third party. Filling out a set of numbers is meaningless if those numbers can just be fake.

Amazon should be working with stronger contracts than "I promise this info is true, signed Anon Anybody"--since they're distributing to third parties and grabbing a profit from the activity, they should be actually verifying at least some of the info before publishing.
Elfwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:28 PM   #325
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 63,374
Karma: 41542799
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
In the Ayn Rand case, it was a random user uploading the content, with no verification that they really were a legitimate distributer. Yes, that's exactly how P2P works.

So in your view then, Jammie Thomas should not be held accountable.
I'm afraid that I honestly don't know enough about P2P clients, and what information they provide to the user, to be able to sensibly answer that question. Sorry.
HarryT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:31 PM   #326
Shaggy
Wizard
Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,293
Karma: 529619
Join Date: May 2007
Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG
Quote:
Originally Posted by carld View Post
Sorry, you're wrong. You're trying to say that just because the possibility of a copyright violation exists in a retail store it justifies the use of torrent sites to upload/download with impunity. No, sorry, that's just not right.
No. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if you insert "Amazon" into the statement or if you insert "filesharer". Either they are both responsible, or neither one is.

Personally, I believe that they are both engaging in infringement. But, you can't say that one is and the other isn't. They are both doing the same thing.

IF (notice that's an If), someone wants to say that Amazon should not be held responsible, then they are also saying that P2P users should not be held responsible either. I am just curious as to whether the people defending Amazon really feel that way, or if they are just making special rules because it is a company doing it instead of an individual.
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:33 PM   #327
Alisa
Gadget Geek
Alisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongue
 
Alisa's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,324
Karma: 22221
Join Date: Aug 2007
Device: Paperwhite, Kindle 3 (retired), Skindle 1.2 (retired)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
In the Ayn Rand case, it was a random user uploading the content, with no verification that they really were a legitimate distributer. Yes, that's exactly how P2P works.

So in your view then, Jammie Thomas should not be held accountable.
There's a big difference between Jammie Thomas and the original example. I understood you as talking about a person getting content thinking they had the right to distribute it and then finding out later they didn't. Even if Ms. Thomas had purchased authorized copies of the songs she uploaded, she did not purchase the right to distribute them. When Amazon accepted the self-published work, it was with the submitter attesting they had the right to distribute it and was authorizing Amazon to distribute it for them. No such rights were given to Ms. Thomas if she purchased a CD or tracks from an authorized store.
Alisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:39 PM   #328
Shaggy
Wizard
Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,293
Karma: 529619
Join Date: May 2007
Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I'm afraid that I honestly don't know enough about P2P clients, and what information they provide to the user, to be able to sensibly answer that question. Sorry.
Hypothetically then, if a downloader could see the account names of people they were receiving the file from (who are claiming they are authorized distributors), then the downloader would not be responsible if they decided to re-share the file? Any liability would only be with someone who initially put a copyrighted work into the P2P network, since they are claiming at the time that they are authorized to distribute it?

Would that sound reasonable?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:41 PM   #329
Shaggy
Wizard
Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Shaggy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,293
Karma: 529619
Join Date: May 2007
Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisa View Post
There's a big difference between Jammie Thomas and the original example. I understood you as talking about a person getting content thinking they had the right to distribute it and then finding out later they didn't. Even if Ms. Thomas had purchased authorized copies of the songs she uploaded, she did not purchase the right to distribute them. When Amazon accepted the self-published work, it was with the submitter attesting they had the right to distribute it and was authorizing Amazon to distribute it for them. No such rights were given to Ms. Thomas if she purchased a CD or tracks from an authorized store.
I was talking about re-sharing content that was downloaded from the P2P network, not uploading content ripped from a CD.
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 02:43 PM   #330
Alisa
Gadget Geek
Alisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongueAlisa can tie a knot in a cherry stem with his or her tongue
 
Alisa's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,324
Karma: 22221
Join Date: Aug 2007
Device: Paperwhite, Kindle 3 (retired), Skindle 1.2 (retired)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
I was talking about re-sharing content that was downloaded from the P2P network, not uploading content ripped from a CD.
Either way, is there a reason Ms. Thomas would have reason to believe she had received the right to distribute those files?
Alisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ayn Rand - 100% Micropay Rebate at Fictionwise KarenH Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) 19 10-01-2009 08:58 PM
Ayn Rand available on the Sony Site SHOECHICK Reading Recommendations 21 09-28-2009 11:54 AM
Ayn Rand desertgrandma Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) 114 06-30-2009 11:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:41 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.