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Old 06-29-2009, 04:19 AM   #46
JSWolf
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Originally Posted by kacir View Post
I do not care about DRM.

I am not interested in BeBook as such, I am interested in Hanlin V3 by Jinke
The BeBook and V3 are the same hardware. They only differ in the firmware. But you can use V3 firmware for the BeBook if you prefer. So why would you not be interested in the BeBook and interested in the V3?
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
The BeBook and V3 are the same hardware. They only differ in the firmware. But you can use V3 firmware for the BeBook if you prefer. So why would you not be interested in the BeBook and interested in the V3?
I did not want to say I was not interested in BeBook. I wanted to emphasize that I am interested in any and all Hanlin V3 rebranded "versions". I do not really care what logo is silkscreened on the reader as long as I can flash firmware of my choice.

But as I said, I am not in a hurry to buy second reader, so situation can change dramatically. Perhaps I will find a device that will be irresistible to me.
Perhaps txtr guys deliver something really, really great. Perhaps some Chinese manufacturer, nobody outside China has ever heard about, will come with something outstanding.
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:26 AM   #48
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Dear mgmueller (or anyone else who can help), thank you for your very helpful comparisons. If it would be possible for you, I would be most grateful if you could answer the following question for me.

Background: I very often read scanned pdfs, where usually the ocr-text-layer is below the page image or not present at all. I am deciding on buying a prs-505 vs. a kindle dx (other suggestions also welcome). My concern is that such images might display much slower than mere text files.

Now, can you tell me how slow such files display (is it also around 1 second per page turn, or how much more)? And is one the the two (or other) devices considerably faster? That would be very nice!

(In case i did not explain clearly enough what kind of pdfs i mean, here are 2 examples of pdfs technically like the ones i often read: http://muslimphilosophy.com/sina/art/marmura4.pdf . http://muslimphilosophy.com/sina/art...chotRev.03.pdf )

Thanks alot!
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:22 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by cze View Post
Dear mgmueller (or anyone else who can help), thank you for your very helpful comparisons. If it would be possible for you, I would be most grateful if you could answer the following question for me.

Background: I very often read scanned pdfs, where usually the ocr-text-layer is below the page image or not present at all. I am deciding on buying a prs-505 vs. a kindle dx (other suggestions also welcome). My concern is that such images might display much slower than mere text files.

Now, can you tell me how slow such files display (is it also around 1 second per page turn, or how much more)? And is one the the two (or other) devices considerably faster? That would be very nice!

(In case i did not explain clearly enough what kind of pdfs i mean, here are 2 examples of pdfs technically like the ones i often read: http://muslimphilosophy.com/sina/art/marmura4.pdf . http://muslimphilosophy.com/sina/art...chotRev.03.pdf )

Thanks alot!
Dear cze,
I'm travelling and only got 2 of my readers with me. So it will take some time to check your specific documents.

In general, concerning scanned PDFs:
I love the daily Garfield and Dilbert strips. (Text documents I usually use in different formats).
On the Kindle 2, I've used the graphics. But most of the times, I generate a single PDF per year or month, only about 1.5 MB.
My experience:

Sony 505:
For PDFs, I often found the Display too small. I very often have had problems to even read the text.
And: Many posts (for PDF text) praise the reflow capabilities, since Sony's firmware update about 1 year ago. Actually, I don't like it at all. I prefer the zoom capabilities of iRex iLiad, I'll describe below.

Kindle 2:
For the graphics it's okay. For PDFs, I don't really "like" Kindle 2. There's no native support, you have to convert via calibre or other 3rd Party tools. The conversion from Amazon usually delivers less convincing results than 3rd party.

iRex iLiad:
You don't list that unit, but I'd like to mention it anyway. On the iLiad, via its touchscreen, you can mark any region you'd like to zoom in. You don't even have to draw a rectangle or circle around the respective area. Just draw a diagonal line, for example from bottom left to top right of the respective area. You don't have to use fixed zoom levels, i. e. 200%, simply blow the respective area to full screen.
That way, I don't have to care about margins, I simply expand the view once and use it for the entire book.

I'll test boot times and time for page turns anyway for all of my units. But in general, I experience Kindle 2 faster than the other units.
But in my opinion, it's not really an issue. My wife HATES (she's got the Sony 505) the page turns of eInk devices. In her opinion, waiting for 1 second and watching the "inversion" is absolutely annoying.
I don't have any problems at all with that.
Usually, startup time for "big" PDFs might be a bit annoying. But page turns usually don't differ that much.
I'll give some figures in a few days.

Over all, scanned PDFs in general same to be slower than sole text files. I guess, that's mainly because of sheer file size. Text files probably are about 700k, PDFs easily can be more than 5 or 10 MBs. (You easily will find PDFs, way bigger than that. 100 MB for technical documents will be easy to find. The few I've tested all could be handled. But startup time alone was no fun at all.)

Anyway: From personal experience, iRax iLiad would be my suggestion for (scanned) PDFs. I LOVE the "free" zoom and the display is significantly bigger.
Kindle DX is about the same size. But lacking any kind of "clever" zooming, I find it less convincing.
iRex 1000S with its even bigger display of course would be the "safest way to go". But most people I'm talking to, consider this unit kind of "overkill".

.....Just downloaded one of your documents. It's just about 500k. Startup time and page turn won't be a problem for that, you won't see any difference.
But still: No native support for PDF on Kindle 2. Kindle DX still far from being benchmark for PDFs.
For a scanned PDF like that, I still don't find Sony's zoom the ideal one.
My personal ranking would be:
iRex iLiad, Sony 505, then Kindle DX.

Last edited by mgmueller; 06-29-2009 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:06 PM   #50
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Arrow Boot times, page turns and other "speed" comparisons

I'll further edit this, day by day.

Comment: I don't have the same amount of data on my different readers. On Kindle DX, for example I only have about 150 books so far. Indexing more files may change the measurements a bit...

Kindle DX:
Startup : 5 seconds, spectacular. No idea, what's their "trick".
Maybe it's suspend-to-ram instead of really turning off or something like that?
Startup from Standby : < 1 second, can't even measure it.

Kindle 2
Startup : 7 seconds, still benchmark
Startup from Standby : < 1 second, can't even measure it.

iRex iLiad
Startup : 45 seconds
Startup from Standby : No standby, I very often simply leave it on.

iRex Reader 1000S
Startup : 50 seconds
Startup from Standby : No standby.

Cybook Gen3
Startup : 35 seconds
Startup from Standby : No standby.

Sony 300
Startup : 30 seconds
Startup from Standby : < 1 second, can't even measure it. 5 seconds when indexing my library.
EDIT: Just took 72 seconds to "cold boot". Way more books than the first time and way more fragmented collections structure.

Sony 505
Startup : 45 seconds
Startup from Standby : < 1 second, can't even measure it. 5 seconds when indexing my library.

Sony 900
Startup : 45 seconds
Startup from Standby : < 1 second, can't even measure it. 5 seconds when indexing my library.
No recognisable improvement to older units (not necessary, has been fine already).
I'll check why it has been slower than Sony 300. Have to compare number of books, indexing fro new books and so on...
EDIT: Just did compare to Sony 300. Sony 900 is a bit faster for the same amount of books.

nook
Startup : 70 seconds.
Startup from Standby : 2 seconds, almost instantaneous.

The others will follow shortly. I'll add times for page turns as well.
Anything else I should measure?

Last edited by mgmueller; 02-08-2010 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:36 PM   #51
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Hmm. I see. Thank you very much! (You almost conviced my that my choice will be between the iliad and the sony 505. The biggest advantage of the sony of course is its price. But the iliad would come with a bigger screen, many more capabilities (note taking, wlan, djvu? etc), so i will have to think about this a bit more.) Maybe you can help me with a few more questions?

1. In the comparison matrix from mobileread i see that the iliad will take about 0.5sec more for page turning. Can you confirm this? Is it recognizable for you?

2. In the meanwhile i also found that the sony ebook library seems to give me a supposedly reliable idea of how the pdf files would look on the sony 505. For a lot of files, this does look not so bad. But there seems to be no option for switching "reflow" on/off or rotating screen, but switching from "S(mall)" to "M(edium)" in lower right seems, in some pdfs, to switch from page view to reflow view. Now, is this "emulation" of the sony's pdf displaying capabilities really reliable?

3. Do you know if the current sony firmware supports jpeg2000 in pdfs? (As in (some?) google book pdfs or pdfs from archive.org.)

4. Is there a nice way to share (via samba?) pdf files from a desktop pc to the iliad, meaning that i have the iliad connected to my wlan router and can browse with it through the files i have on the desktop and then download and read one of them comfortably?

5. Is it possible (and cheaper) to buy the cheaper iliad (Book Edition) and add wlan capability via CF or USB?

6. Concerning the nice zooming feature of the iliad you described: do i take your description ("once and use it for the entire book") right in that it is possible this way to let the iliad "remember" a zoom frame i draw in page 1 for the following pages like a temporary crop of white border? Is there such a zoom feature with the Sony (or does one have to manually crop pdfs in advance on a desktop pc)?

Thanks again, mgmueller, for your again very helpful informations!

Last edited by cze; 06-29-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:36 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cze View Post
Hmm. I see. Thank you very much! (You almost conviced my that my choice will be between the iliad and the sony 505. The biggest advantage of the sony of course is its price. But the iliad would come with a bigger screen, many more capabilities (note taking, wlan, djvu? etc), so i will have to think about this a bit more.) Maybe you can help me with a few more questions?

1. In the comparison matrix from mobileread i see that the iliad will take about 0.5sec more for page turning. Can you confirm this? Is it recognizable for you?

2. In the meanwhile i also found that the sony ebook library seems to give me a supposedly reliable idea of how the pdf files would look on the sony 505. For a lot of files, this does look not so bad. But there seems to be no option for switching "reflow" on/off or rotating screen, but switching from "S(mall)" to "M(edium)" in lower right seems, in some pdfs, to switch from page view to reflow view. Now, is this "emulation" of the sony's pdf displaying capabilities really reliable?

3. Do you know if the current sony firmware supports jpeg2000 in pdfs? (As in (some?) google book pdfs or pdfs from archive.org.)

4. Is there a nice way to share (via samba?) pdf files from a desktop pc to the iliad, meaning that i have the iliad connected to my wlan router and can browse with it through the files i have on the desktop and then download and read one of them comfortably?

5. Is it possible (and cheaper) to buy the cheaper iliad (Book Edition) and add wlan capability via CF or USB?

6. Concerning the nice zooming feature of the iliad you described: do i take your description ("once and use it for the entire book") right in that it is possible this way to let the iliad "remember" a zoom frame i draw in page 1 for the following pages like a temporary crop of white border? Is there such a zoom feature with the Sony (or does one have to manually crop pdfs in advance on a desktop pc)?

Thanks again, mgmueller, for your again very helpful informations!
Question 1:
I've got iRex iLiad and Sony 505 with me, so I directly can compare. The comparison won't be fair, as I don't use the very same book on different devices...
I've just tested it. May not be representative, would have to check various formats.
But for that single check, I can confirm: In that test, iLiad IS slower than Sony 505 in page turns. 0.5 sec seems about right.
Never did recognize it, though. You just get a feeling, when to turn. On iLiad, I do it about 2 lines before the end of the page.

Question 2:
They actually all look fine. Sony 505 has a brilliant display (as opposed to Sony 700), always crisp and clear.
Question is, whether the document still is readable.
You can send a document to me, I'll take a snapshot and post it here.
You change the orientation for Sony 505 within the settings. You change it in general, not just for the single book.
If you zoom in, the PDF automatically is reflowed, you can't stop that. Before Sony's firmware update, the PDF as a whole simply was zoomed, without any changes in the layout. I was fine with that, but it only had "fixed" zoom levels, whereas iLiad can zoom freely.
After the firmware update, zooming was replaced by reflow.
I don't really like it. I'd prefer the option zoom OR reflow.
With reflow, of course the entire layout/linespacing, is changing.
One of my "problems" might be, using "low qualilty" PDFs, sometimes from OCRed scans. Maybe it looks better with "professional" documents.
But in my documents, reflow simply doesn't look that good.
On iLiad, nothing changes, I just zoom in and out as I please - with the touchscreen it's extremely convenient as well.
And of course, iLiad can change the orientation "on the fly" within the document.

I've just compared a single document in Sony library and on the Sony 505.
For that single book, the "emulation" is perfect.
But Sony only has "S", "M", and "L" as zooming levels, no "XL" or "XXL".
For the existing zoom levels, layout was identical on both units.
I've checked on my UMPC, which has 7" and only 1024 x 600. So it's kind of comparable. But still, eInk and TFT look very differently, so it only can give you a very rough idea.
(On the other hand, using the same resolution and screen size, eInk should be superior. So, when you're fine on the PC...)

Question 3:
If you send a respective file to me, I'll test it on the units you're interested in.

Question 4:
Haven't done it, but I've read the posts in the developer's section.
It seems to be working fine.
Personally, I don't need it. I'm either at home, with my entire library within reach. Or I'm travelling and have my UMPC with the entire library with me.
PLUS: Most of the readers (exception: Kindle 2 and Kindle DX=) offer storage capacity for >> 1000 ebooks. So I wouldn't see the need to store the majority of my books elsewhere.

Question 5:
Honestly, I have NO USE AT ALL for the WLAN capability.
I've only ever used it for 2 features:
a.) Firmware updates. But you could do this easily via Ethernet as well, you won't do it too often. And posts in the forum state, there won't be any further firmware updates for iLiad anymore. (Fine by me, the OS more or less seems perfect to me.)
b.) In the developer's section you find a cool tool for downloading daily comic strips via WLAN. Nice and working perfectly. But I prefer downloading the ones I'll actually read manually.
There is NO webshop, you could access (similar to Amazon's Whispernet via WLAN).
-->What's your intention/demand for WLAN? Is it the feature, you describe under question 4?
As far as i know (but I may be wrong here) you CANNOT add WLAN functionality afterwards via USB or CF. BeBook has announced that feature, but obviously it has to be supported by the OS. As far as I know, iRex DOESN'T support that.

Question 6:
Yes, iLiad remembers your zooming level through the entire document.
Can be a different one for every single book, of course.
There's even a "hack" (another advantage of iLiad, having tons of applications) for a "fullscreen" mode.
There's no such feature on Sony 505 (or any other device I've tested), that's really bound to iRex' touchscreen.
For Sony, you would have to crop your PDF on the PC accordingly.
There are lots of posts concerning that feature.
Imagine PDFs with 2 columns.
Or scanned PDFs with different margins within a single book.
And: You can scribble on your PDFs via iRex' tablet/pen.

Last edited by mgmueller; 07-01-2009 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:35 PM   #53
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What are your specific concerns with the BeBook? I am considering getting the EZReader for my son.

However, the Pocket Pro is not quite the same as the current BeBook. The Pocket Pro is the next generation of the BeBook hardware. I am sure that BeBook will also carry this. Both units are actually the Hanlin hardware with BeBook/EZReader branding.

I'm not sure how exact my memory is, but here goes. The pocket pro has a faster (Epson) controller, it is five inches in size, and it has a scroll wheel added to the right side for an alternative page advance button.

There will be a lot of similarities with the current generation BeBook, so I am interested in your opinion. However, I have no way of knowing about any more subtle design changes that may have impacted the product.
The sole criteria for adding BeBook to my collection has been the (so far biggest) variety of file formats.
But: Mobipocket is the only DRM format on it. This I can use on Cybook or both iRex units as well (even with some advantages, for example thumbnails on Cybook). For the other formats, I don't really have any advantage.
I mainly don't download from the web, but purchase the ebooks I'm interested in.
Would BeBook process DRMed .lit, which I've got from my former Pocket PCs, it would be helpful. But being able to process un-DRMed .lit is of no use for me. Same for the other formats.
So I don't really have any use for most of the formats.
Still, the OS has some nice aspects and OpenInkpot certainly would be an option.
But I'm simply not using it, because it's simply "not cool" to me. Lots of people, which have seen more than 1 unit from me, ALL did agree on that.
If you compare, let's say Sony 505 and BeBook, you've got the impression, it's either a difference of at least 1 generation (3 years or something like that) or a totally different price range.
I don't know how else to express it. BeBook looks and feels like "cheap plastic".

Quote from PC Pro's online review:
"Unfortunately, first impressions are underwhelming. Whereas the Sony PRS-505 slid from the box like a Bentley whispering out of the showroom, there's a real bargain basement feel to the BeBook".

Quote from Macworld:
"With its black plastic case, tic-tac buttons and e-paper screen it has a retro feel, rather like an old Psion PDA. Sony seems to have offset the old-fashioned feel of the screen with a swish silver case and svelte buttons - something the BeBook could use."

Quote from cnet UK:
"When it comes to design, comparing the BeBook to the PRS-505 is like comparing Asda's £20 'city' suit to Savile Row's finest tailoring. The Sony model's classy metallic finish and the BeBook's plasticky case just don't compare."
"Endless Ideas' BeBook is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it has good battery life, great file support and an excellent screen, but, on the other, it's hampered by a sluggish menu system and plasticky, unappealing design."

Additional comment:
Standalone, on its own, all readers are great. I'd prefer ANY eInk over Notebooks and other technologies anytime.
A friend of mine decided for Sony 700 over Sony 505 because of speed and touchscreen.
He absolutely LOVES his unit. When checking out my Sony 505, he's briefly depressed. But after using his Sony 700 again for a few minutes, everything is fine.
Same probably is true for BeBook. If you don't compare to others, it's a nice unit.
But in comparison, its design "flaws" in aesthetics become obvious...

Last edited by mgmueller; 07-29-2009 at 03:55 PM. Reason: additions
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:59 PM   #54
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You change the orientation for Sony 505 within the settings. You change it in general, not just for the single book.
Just as an aside, you can also toggle it by pressing & holding the 'zoom' key. It's still device-wide, but more convenient.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:36 AM   #55
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Expansion slots

iRex iLiad:
MMC/SD: Limit 1GB
CF: No limitation
USB Host: Not for connecting to a PC, but hosting a harddisk or using a Memory Stick. When travelling, in the beginning I sometimes have had a harddisk > 30 GB of comics.

iRex 1000S:
SD: No limitation
When purchasing, 1GB already is included.

Sony 505 and Sony 700:
SD: No limitation
Memory Stick: No limitation

Kindle 2 and Kindle DX:
NO expansion slots.
I guess the idea is, you can download your content anytime via Whispernet. Personally, I don't like that. You may be out of range of Whispernet, or you simply might want to carry 3rd party content with you.

Cybook Gen3:
SD: Limit 2GB

BeBook:
SD: Limit 1GB

Last edited by mgmueller; 07-03-2009 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:56 AM   #56
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:32 PM   #57
oleander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgmueller View Post
I'll further edit this, day by day.

iRex iLiad
Startup : 45 seconds
Startup from Standby : No standby, I very often simply leave it on.

Cybook Gen3
Startup : 35 seconds
Startup from Standby : No standby.

The others will follow shortly. I'll add times for page turns as well.
Anything else I should measure?
NO STANDBY? What does this mean in daily usage? Do you leave the units on permanently? Do you actually start them an live with a boot-time of 35 or even 45 seconds?
I've got Kindle, so I can't even imagining to accept something like that.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:36 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgmueller View Post
iRex iLiad:
MMC/SD: Limit 1GB
CF: No limitation
USB Host: Not for connecting to a PC, but hosting a harddisk or using a Memory Stick. When travelling, in the beginning I sometimes have had a harddisk > 50 GB of comics.

Kindle 2 and Kindle DX:
NO expansion slots.
I guess the idea is, you can download your content anytime via Whispernet. Personally, I don't like that. You may be out of range of Whispernet, or you simply might want to carry 3rd party content with you.

BeBook:
SD: Limit 1GB
CF? Really? Didn't know they even exist anymore...

Do you actually consider the lack of memory slots a downside of Kindle?
How many books a time do you carry with you?
I usually have about 100 books with me, which seems plenty. What good is any expansion?
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:49 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oleander View Post
CF? Really? Didn't know they even exist anymore...

Do you actually consider the lack of memory slots a downside of Kindle?
How many books a time do you carry with you?
I usually have about 100 books with me, which seems plenty. What good is any expansion?
iRex iLiad REALLY has a CF slot. I know....
But it's acceptable to me. Prices are okay and I only need one cartridge, so I never even take it out.
But I clearly find Sony preferable (in that issue): 2 slots with 2 up-to-date cards (SD and/or Memory stick).

How many books? It depends. On Kindle, I exclusively use .azw from Amazon. Both units are new, so I only have about 150 ebooks so far.
I've got ALL of them with me, all the time. For the moment, I even leave the ones on, I've already read.
On my iRex I would have to count. But i guess, it's about 800 books.
On Sony 505, I have 964.
I don't see measurable differences in performance, depending on the number of books. So, as long as I've got the storage space, I'll fill my readers to the limit.
Usually, I just scroll through my library to decide, which book to read next. Sometimes, I read 3 to 5 books in parallel.

So I absolutely prefer, having more or less all my books with me. All the time.

In German we have a saying "viel hilft viel". Translation would be something like "a lot helps a lot".
The more the better....
Surely, on Kindle 2 I probably can carry about 300 books with me, on Kindle DX even more. But why accept such a limit? Cost for SD cards are sooo low...

Last edited by mgmueller; 07-01-2009 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:03 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oleander View Post
NO STANDBY? What does this mean in daily usage? Do you leave the units on permanently? Do you actually start them an live with a boot-time of 35 or even 45 seconds?
I've got Kindle, so I can't even imagining to accept something like that.
In the beginning, when only owning iRex iLiad, I didn't consider it a problem. All the manufacturers state, eInk only consumes energy, when building the page. Once the page is build up, there wouldn't be any energy consumption.
So I simply left it on.
And back then it was working. I was so enthusiastic about my reader, that I've used it often enough, to never really drain the battery, even without standby.
But now, still happy but not THAT enthusiastic anymore and having 8 readers to choose, I very often find one or two of my readers drained.

Meaning:
a.) They (all of them) DEFINITELY drain energy in standby.
b.) WITHOUT standby, they would drain the battery even faster.
So I don't leave them on anymore. Either I use standby, or (if not available) I switch them off.
That's the reason why at home, for a quick read, I prefer Sony 505 over iRex iLiad.
I use iRex iLiad for longer reading sessions only.

When owning only 1 device, 45 seconds for startup aren't that big a problem. But if you compare readers, it's a bit annoying.
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