If Amazon Were Microsoft, Would Kindle 2 Policies Be Tolerated?

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Mitchll

It's your choice. There are few if any books available only at Amazon. You trade your convenience (desire or whatever) for their method of doing business. It's their game, their rules, but you can play elsewhere. The cost of getting that new book at under ten dollars is using their equipment.

They still "force" you to buy their equipment if you want to buy their books. And them being so large, I see that as a way to control their market.

I think they're walking a tight line there. The only reason they're not going over it, is because they don't force you to buy their books. You can still get books from other sources.

From wikipedia:

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)

Some kinds of tying, especially by contract, have historically been regarded as anti-competitive practices. The basic idea is that consumers are harmed by being forced to buy an undesired good (the tied good) in order to purchase a good they actually want (the tying good), and so would prefer that the goods be sold separately. The company doing this bundling may have a significantly large market share so that it may impose the tie on consumers, despite the forces of market competition. The tie may also harm other companies in the market for the tied good, or who sell only single components.

Translate that to:

Some kinds of tying, especially by contract, have historically been regarded as anti-competitive practices. The basic idea is that consumers are harmed by being forced to buy a Kindle in order to purchase a book, and so would prefer that the goods be sold separately. The company doing this bundling may have a significantly large market share so that it may impose the tie on consumers, despite the forces of market competition. The tie may also harm other companies in the market for ebookreader, or who sell only single components.

[Sporadic]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

They still "force" you to buy their equipment if you want to buy their books. And them being so large, I see that as a way to control their market.

I think they're walking a tight line there. The only reason they're not going over it, is because they don't force you to buy their books. You can still get books from other sources.

From wikipedia:



Translate that to:

Again that would make sense if you could only get that specific book from the Kindle...or if they are the only ebook store...or if you signed a contract saying you would buy 24 books a year from their store.

I don't know of any exclusives (besides self published stuff), they are far from the only ebook store/reader and there is nothing forcing you to actually use their store. You could easily buy a Kindle and never give Amazon a cent by filling it with public domain books.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Sporadic

Again that would make sense if you could only get that specific book from the Kindle...or if they are the only ebook store...or if you signed a contract saying you would buy 24 books a year from their store.

I don't know of any exclusives (besides self published stuff), they are far from the only ebook store and there is nothing forcing you to actually use their store. You could easily buy a Kindle and never give Amazon a cent by filling it with public domain books.

It works the other way around. I can't buy their books unless I buy a Kindle. And there are books that are only available at Amazon.

[Sporadic]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

It works the other way around. I can't buy their books unless I buy a Kindle. And there are books that are only available at Amazon.

And I can't use the books I buy (or the free books I collected) from Sony's store unless I have a PRS-505/700 reader. Even worse, it's impossible to break the DRM and convert it to something I can use on my Kindle.

What's your point?

(Also isn't the Amazon Kindle store open for iPhone owners?)

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Sporadic

And I can't use the books I buy (or the free books I collected) from Sony's store unless I have a PRS-505/700 reader. Even worse, it's impossible to break the DRM and convert it to something I can use on my Kindle.

What's your point?

The point is that Amazon is a major player in the bookmarket. Sony isn't.

But to get back to the question the OP asked, what if it hadn't been Amazon, but Microsoft?

I can remember the problems MS had when they shipped Mediaplayer (at least I think it was mediaplayer) with Windows (even though it was free, it had to be removed...)

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Sporadic

And I can't use the books I buy (or the free books I collected) from Sony's store unless I have a PRS-505/700 reader. Even worse, it's impossible to break the DRM and convert it to something I can use on my Kindle.

What's your point?

(Also isn't the Amazon Kindle store open for iPhone owners?)

Yes you can. All you need is the Windows software.

[Sporadic]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Yes you can. All you need is the Windows software.

I bought an ebook reader so I wouldn't have to read on my computer. Just like I imagine others bought an ebook reader so they wouldn't have to read on an iPhone.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

The point is that Amazon is a major player in the bookmarket. Sony isn't.

Which goes back to my original post in this thread.

Originally Posted by Sporadic

You know who else does 1-3? Valve with Steam...

and yet they are hailed as champions against oppressive DRM.

I think a better question is, would Amazon be getting as much flak from nerds if they weren't on top of the pile and if the publishers were doing something worse?

Sony isn't much better and they only open up when they fall behind in market share.

With Amazon being perceived as the "evil" company, alot of people are pushing Sony's stuff which is just laughable to me. You think they would have added ePub and Adobe DRM protected PDF support if Amazon didn't pick up so much steam or if they were unopposed with Amazon's marketshare? No, no chance in hell.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Bleh.... Until they up the hardware requirements and force you to upgrade your box (no, you cannot continue to play the games you already paid for....)

Or, until they ban you, without the right to appeal (and again, no, you cannot continue to play the games you already paid for....)

DRM is poison, no matter how they flavor your Kool-aid.

The one time i had trouble with steam (my half life key being registed by someone else), i was told to go buy the game again. Needless to say, i did NOT liked that.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Mitchll

Microsoft is in a monopoly position, with a headlock on the market. Amazon is a company with many competitors, who by no means controls the market. If you don't like Amazon's practices, or their prices, you can go elsewhere.

Although I run Windows, I can buy my software from Adobe, Corel, and thousands of other vendors. If I buy a Kindle, I break the license agreement if I do not buy the books as well from Amazon. And because Amazon has the ability to disable the Kindle remotely, it is in a position to enforce the TOS. That is a significant difference between the two business models.

[Sporadic]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Although I run Windows, I can buy my software from Adobe, Corel, and thousands of other vendors. If I buy a Kindle, I break the license agreement if I do not buy the books as well from Amazon. And because Amazon has the ability to disable the Kindle remotely, it is in a position to enforce the TOS. That is a significant difference between the two business models.

If you buy OS X Leopard, you can't install it on anything but a Mac or else you break their EULA...despite the fact they flaunt Boot Camp.

Where did you hear that Amazon has the ability to disable the Kindle remotely? Through the wireless (you never have to turn on), they can update your books but I've never heard of a case where they deep 6'd books. You can lose your Amazon account if you are a jackass but you still get to access to your books you currently have on it and the device itself (even if you are banned from the store)

Sounds like you misheard something.

- edit If you are talking about flags, you know that Sony's Blu-Ray has a flag (Image Constraint Token or ICT) that, when activated, will downcovert the picture to SD quality if your player is plugged in a "unsecured" fashion. Just because there is a flag, doesn't mean the company will ever activate it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Constraint_Token

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Mitchll

Microsoft is in a monopoly position, with a headlock on the market. Amazon is a company with many competitors, who by no means controls the market. If you don't like Amazon's practices, or their prices, you can go elsewhere.

Is this a joke or serious?

Amazon is far the biggest etailer and the only giant in ebooks - moreso than Microsoft in software (they are clearly dominant only in the desktop/WS OS market.)

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Sporadic

With Amazon being perceived as the "evil" company, alot of people are pushing Sony's stuff which is just laughable to me. You think they would have added ePub and Adobe DRM protected PDF support if Amazon didn't pick up so much steam or if they were unopposed with Amazon's marketshare? No, no chance in hell.

Good point - Sony is the granddaddy of proprietary, locked-down systems, softwares and services, clearly illegal DRMs (rootkits, SecuROM, anyone? All are being developed by Sony!)

Anyone thinks Sony is a better choice for less control than Amazon is clearly naive.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by kamm

Is this a joke or serious?

Amazon is far the biggest etailer and the only giant in ebooks - moreso than Microsoft in software (they are clearly dominant only in the desktop/WS OS market.)

Well, we non us people uses our readers happily without amazon

Good point - Sony is the granddaddy of proprietary, locked-down systems, softwares and services, clearly illegal DRMs (rootkits, SecuROM, anyone? All are being developed by Sony!)

Anyone thinks Sony is a better choice for less control than Amazon is clearly naive.

Yep, i had a sony mp3 player, but i went for archos next time. Then, that's one of the reason i went for the cybook. Still, i'll sooner buy a psr-500 than a kindle, if only because the psr-500 is available here, and it do support epub.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by estral

If Microsoft announced an eReader with the following policies, how would the ePublishing community react?

1. You do not purchase anything, all product is sold under a revokable license.
2. Your reader can be controlled and DISABLED remotely at the discression of the seller
3. Contents can be controlled remotely with features turned on and off at the will of the seller.

Funny timing, but I just read that Microsoft was granted a patent today on intentionally crippling the functionality of an operating system by "making selected portions and functionality of the operating system unavailable to the user or by limiting the user's ability to add software applications or device drivers to the computer' until an 'agreed upon sum of money' is paid to 'unlock or otherwise make available the restricted functionality."

Sounds like 1, 2, and 3 right there. Doing it is one thing, but actually applying for a patent on it?

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Yes you can. All you need is the Windows software.

AND iPod Touch owners running firmware 2.2.1 or newer!!! Even my (gently used) 1st gen Touch that I bought on eBay about three weeks ago can - and does - run Kindle for iPhone.

Derek