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05-21-2009, 11:30 AM   #31
pepak
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by rogue_ronin if I do this properly, with meta and structure strictly controlled, CSS can do things like change layout such that you reorder the book (at least I think so; wizards please chime in.)
Tim the Enchanter quoth, 'Yes'.

 05-21-2009, 11:43 AM #32 DaleDe Grand Sorcerer     Posts: 9,540 Karma: 4597554 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Grass Valley, CA Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2 I would add: Language and rights to the meta tags. language=en and rights="public domain" (this is the ePUB name for license). There should also be a unique identifier, ISBN or equivalent. id="xxxxx". A personal favorite of mine is the description. This is a short description of the eBook. It is often used by dealer to describe the book and can be viewed in some reader programs before opening the book. The metadata wiki article has some ideas. DublinCore has the official name for terms. You may want to conform. You might want to make the latest revision machine readable by pulling it out of the comment. Dale
05-21-2009, 11:52 AM   #33
rogue_ronin
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by pepak A few comments: - I think you will have trouble with authorfirst/authorlast/illustratorfirst/illustratorlast if a book has multiple authors/illustrators.
I think so too, re: "should they have numbers?" I think I'm trying to predict incompatibilities -- I mean, in my head I'm assuming that a <meta> like "Author" is so common that I need to use it in a "traditional" way. But your idea below--

Quote:
 I would combine all info about one author into one meta, then used multiple instances of said meta to describe multiple authors: Code:  
Code:
<meta name="author" content="Raymond|E.|Feist|" />
<meta name="author" content="Janny||Wurts|" />
<meta name="author" content="T.|K. F.|Weisskopf|" />
Which is stupid-easy to parse for separate values, and if it got read by some meta-utility as a single value, it would still be readable. What do you think? Similar for Illustrator, too, of course.

Twice now you've suggested email addresses. Given what I've suggested above, perhaps a different solution occurs to you? I don't want to put the email in the author slot, although I think it works in the proofer slot because it's so much less important, and not likely to be used for organizing...

Quote:
 The classes seem superfluous: Personally, I prefer to use classes only to modify the default structural information. E.g.

, as the "top header", is always used for title, unless class specifies something else. Similarly,

is always a common paragraph; I will only add class if I want to specify that it is not a normal paragraph after all.

Yeah, I think you're right -- any class names, or element names above are really just placeholders for now. Just using them to nail down the meta-section pattern. I've laid out some structural elements in a post above -- I'm open to your suggestions.

Quote:
 - Not sure what would the navigation buttons be used for.
Look at the my response to pdurrant above -- navigating from place to place in the book. (You can't create links via CSS can you?)

Quote:
 You can't [put
s in the head.] Even if you could, that would make the metainformation visible, which is not a good thing, IMO.
Right. 'nuff said, no <div>s in the head.

m a r

Last edited by rogue_ronin; 05-21-2009 at 12:24 PM.

05-21-2009, 12:14 PM   #34
rogue_ronin
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by DaleDe I would add: Language and rights to the meta tags. language=en and rights="public domain" (this is the ePUB name for license).
Like the language idea. I'll add it. The rights idea -- I have a "copyrightholder" tag already, I could simply use "public domain" as its value.

Quote:
 There should also be a unique identifier, ISBN or equivalent. id="xxxxx".
Both "ISBN" and "fileid" are already in the proposal.

Quote:
 A personal favorite of mine is the description. This is a short description of the eBook. It is often used by dealer to describe the book and can be viewed in some reader programs before opening the book.
Another good idea. It's in!

Quote:
 The metadata wiki article has some ideas. DublinCore has the official name for terms. You may want to conform.
I may. If you know the terms, you could save me some research.

Quote:
 You might want to make the latest revision machine readable by pulling it out of the comment.
It's in both places. The commented version is for easy human readable access. Look farther down and you'll see both version number and revision date in the <meta> file section.

m a r

 05-21-2009, 12:51 PM #35 rogue_ronin Banned   Posts: 475 Karma: 796 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Honolulu Device: Nokia 770 (fbreader) Okay, after input from both DaleDe and pepak, here is an updated and rearranged example of a meta-head: Code:  A Princess of Mars 
 05-21-2009, 02:36 PM #36 DaleDe Grand Sorcerer     Posts: 9,540 Karma: 4597554 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Grass Valley, CA Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2 copyright holder is slightly different I think especially for creative commons licenses. Here is the location of the dublin core specifications. This is currently used in ePUB and earlier forms of this documentation. http://dublincore.org/ As I mentioned there is also metadata as a topic in our wiki. Dale
05-22-2009, 03:53 AM   #37
rogue_ronin
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by DaleDe copyright holder is slightly different I think especially for creative commons licenses. Here is the location of the dublin core specifications. This is currently used in ePUB and earlier forms of this documentation. http://dublincore.org/ As I mentioned there is also metadata as a topic in our wiki. Dale
I looked a the metadata page on the wiki. But the DublinCore stuff is way to involved to scan: and it's focused on XML. I'm trying to keep it simple...

And I want to be careful not to try and re-create ePub here.

Still, there are a few things from the wiki that are worth discussing:

comments: Not sure that I need to do this, but I'm open to argument.

identifier: the main issue is, should I rename "fileid" to "identifier"? Can't think of a good reason -- identifier seems too abstract.

editor: might add this -- it's not from the wiki, exactly, but is mentioned in the "creator/contributor" section. Creator and contributor seem too general to me, but I'm open to arguments.

subject: isn't genre enough? Also, I should maybe show y'all the genre list I found and use. It's really more like a subject list.

date: I'm thinking maybe it should be yyyy/mmm/dd, but not yyyy/mm/dd -- the numbers are confusing, but 3-letter code for months is optimal.

rights: I'm not sure about this. Open Source, Public Domain, Creative Commons -- and what do you put for something under copyright? Is there anything else?

m a r

05-22-2009, 04:29 AM   #38
gwynevans
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by rogue_ronin date: I'm thinking maybe it should be yyyy/mmm/dd, but not yyyy/mm/dd -- the numbers are confusing, but 3-letter code for months is optimal.
[FX: Raises eyebrow] Optimal? [/FX]

I think you'd be better off going with the yyyy-mm-dd format of the ISO 8601 standard.

One of the problems you'll have with mmm is Locale - for example, in French, the first three letters of June and July are both 'jui' (juin and juillet)!

05-22-2009, 04:44 AM   #39
rogue_ronin
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by gwynevans [FX: Raises eyebrow] Optimal? [/FX]
[FX: shrugs, hangs head in shame][SFX: plaintive flute]Bad use of word. "Preferable to my limited sensibilities" is more accurate.[/SFX][/FX]

Quote:
 I think you'd be better off going with the yyyy-mm-dd format of the ISO 8601 standard. One of the problems you'll have with mmm is Locale - for example, in French, the first three letters of June and July are both 'jui' (juin and juillet)!
I surrender to you, to pepak, to the wiki, to ePub, to wikipedia, to ISO 8601 etc. I'll switch it to yyyy/mm/dd.

[SFX: Thrilling Horns signal a Flourish!][/SFX]

m a r

 05-22-2009, 06:49 AM #40 pepak Fanatic   Posts: 594 Karma: 4150 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: Sony Reader PRS-505 We won! Yahooo!!!! :-)
 05-22-2009, 11:23 PM #41 rogue_ronin Banned   Posts: 475 Karma: 796 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Honolulu Device: Nokia 770 (fbreader) And I thought I was done with meta! Code:  A Princess of Mars  Changes! Renamed DOCUMENT HISTORY to FILE HISTORY for consistency. keywords: added as "keywords" in the book-itself-info section. I imagine it would be useful for search, assuming it doesn't repeat things in the other tags. comments: added as "filecomments". I guess there could be something important to know. Or folks could use it to brag. identifier: staying with "fileid" -- which should be a reasonable attempt at a unique ID. editor: added, using same format as "author" and "illustrator", so multiple editors are possible. subject: staying with simply "genre", at least for now. date: switched all to yyyy/mm/dd. And there was much rejoicing! rights: Added it, as "copyrightlicense": I can see where it might be useful. "Open Source", "Public Domain", "Creative Commons", "CopyLeft" -- What do you put for something under copyright? "Closed" or "Private" or "Commercial"? Is there any other license? If you think of anything else let me know. I'm still looking for a good idea about email addresses that doesn't "pollute" the name entries. How about a single "contact" entry? Anyone want my assembled list of genres? m a r
 05-24-2009, 01:08 AM #42 rogue_ronin Banned   Posts: 475 Karma: 796 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Honolulu Device: Nokia 770 (fbreader) Book Structure... This is what I'm thinking... It took a while, and I'm probably still missing things and making mistakes. I first over-used the "id" attribute. I think I pruned it pretty well, and only used classes where necessary, and at the highest levels I could. Anything in ALL CAPS is a value determined by your naming convention or content needs. Hope you're not confused by the outline: I thought it best to name what I'm working on... Code:  1. Cover 2. Frontispiece

TITLE/SERIES NAME

• SERIES LIST TITLES
3. Front Matter

FRONT MATTER CONTENT (BLURBS, JUNK, ADS, WHATEVER)

4. Title Page

TITLE

SUBTITLE

AUTHOR

ILLUSTRATOR

5. Verso

PUBLISHER BLURB

VERSION NUMBER

REVISION DATE

ORIGINAL SOURCE

SCANNER

PROOFER(S)

6. Inscription

INSCRIPTION CONTENT

7. Acknowledgment

ACKNOWLEDGMENT CONTENT

8. Preface

PREFACE CONTENT

9. Table of Illustrations

10. Table of Maps

11. Table of Tables

13. Introduction

INTRODUCTION CONTENT

14. Parts

PART BLURB

A. Prologue

EPIGRAM

PULL QUOTE

APPENDIX CONTENT

B. Chapters

EPIGRAM

PULL QUOTE

APPENDIX CONTENT

C. Epilogue

EPIGRAM

PULL QUOTE

APPENDIX CONTENT

D. Appendices

EPIGRAM

PULL QUOTE

APPENDIX CONTENT

15. Afterword

AFTERWORD CONTENT

17. Colophon

COLOPHON CONTENT

18. Endnotes

ENDNOTE CONTENT

19. Glossary

GLOSSARY CONTENT

20. Index

INDEX CONTENT

21. End Matter

END MATTER CONTENT (BLURBS, JUNK, ADS, WHATEVER)

 Nothing in this is required exactly. (For instance, I cannot think of an example of an Inscription header. So just don't use it.) And CONTENT can include anything, right? But if something needs to explicitly be moved, let me know. I moved Appendices under Parts; I just thought that it made sense -- formatting in an Appendix would likely be similar to a Chapter, and they seem to me to be of equivalent "rank". How'd I do? m a r
 05-25-2009, 11:56 AM #43 DaleDe Grand Sorcerer     Posts: 9,540 Karma: 4597554 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Grass Valley, CA Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2 You may want to check the wiki on genre and add some of your favorites with explanation if they are missing. Dale
05-25-2009, 01:36 PM   #44
gwynevans
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by rogue_ronin date: switched all to yyyy/mm/dd. And there was much rejoicing!
While it's your choice, I feel that I need to flag the fact that if you intended the date to be the ISO 8601 standard format, those date-element seperators should be hyphens (or not present)...

 05-25-2009, 09:07 PM #45 rogue_ronin Banned   Posts: 475 Karma: 796 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Honolulu Device: Nokia 770 (fbreader) @gwynevans: I'll switch the format. I didn't read the spec, just relying on good advice here. @dalede: I already have a list of genres, scavenged from the BISAC Subject Headings. I expect that they cannot be posted on the wiki. Anyone have comments on the structure and tag choices? m a r .mr-forums-btf-lastpost-in-sig-l { width: 650px; height: 300px; margin-top: 10px; }

 Tags html, library, meta, structure, xhtml