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Old 05-18-2009, 01:30 PM   #31
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Hi, newbie here sticking non-psocked toe into water.
re. id cards in UK: granted I need passport for foreign travel, which is also sufficient for those few occasions when I need some form of id in UK; am still totally opposed to introduction of id card system in UK for following reasons:
- UK has managed w/o id cards (except for ww2) and this is a welcome cultural distinction;
- The alleged benefits seem weighted solely in favour of government, what if any benefits are there for me?
- I see id cards as providing a H U G E incentive for widespread id theft;
- I don't trust government to keep my data safe and am concerned at the cost - can anybody name even one large government IT project that has come in on time, on budget, on spec and actually worked?
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Old 05-18-2009, 04:27 PM   #32
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The alleged benefits seem weighted solely in favour of government, what if any benefits are there for me?
E.g. being able to check who you are making deals with?

Quote:
I see id cards as providing a H U G E incentive for widespread id theft
I've never heard of any case of id theft that was helped by ID cards ...

Quote:
I don't trust government to keep my data safe and am concerned at the cost - can anybody name even one large government IT project that has come in on time, on budget, on spec and actually worked?
Nope. In Germany this system is established for years - so far w/o any problems regarding data theft, cost or other problems...
OTOH what information does your provider have?
(I dont like my government to have any data from me - but where I live and whats my name .. I dont see any problems with that. The same data is in the telephone book)
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:23 PM   #33
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Being able to check who I'm making deals with - maybe my life is missing something, but I've not had to do that yet.

Id theft - here in UK we've already had instances of criminals getting work in the civil service and flogging off National Insurance numbers. Now we're going to set up another database. Were I an intelligent criminal, I'd be looking to suborn civil servants to get access to the data or to set up bogus ids.

Trusting government - Hmm, as I understand it, the German system is a little less adventurous (i.e., more sensible) than the UK proposals. I don't have a problem with name & address data being held by govt., but if they're going to hold more data on my id card then I want to know what info they have, and be able to challenge and correct it when necessary
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:37 PM   #34
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Being able to check who I'm making deals with - maybe my life is missing something, but I've not had to do that yet.
Hmm, maybe because I'm working with (legally restricted) explosives, but I have to do this quite regularly.
And ID cards with a photo (in combination with a license) are quite helpful there

Is regularly correct? At regular intervals. Regularly looks pretty wrong, but my spelling checker does not ring ..

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Id theft - here in UK we've already had instances of criminals getting work in the civil service and flogging off National Insurance numbers. Now we're going to set up another database. Were I an intelligent criminal, I'd be looking to suborn civil servants to get access to the data or to set up bogus ids.
I know of .. let me think .. two similar cases in Germany. But that's not ID theft, that's ID forging, isn't it? And wouldn't ID forging be easier without an ID card?

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Trusting government - Hmm, as I understand it, the German system is a little less adventurous (i.e., more sensible) than the UK proposals. I don't have a problem with name & address data being held by govt., but if they're going to hold more data on my id card then I want to know what info they have, and be able to challenge and correct it when necessary
It was more sensible (the ID card holds your name (including optional artists name), address, date of birth, size, a photo, colour of your hair and ID-number) - but they are changing it (biometric data (e.g. fingerprint), digital photo, reading via RFID, etc). Quite annoying...
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:05 AM   #35
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I live in the U.S. now, and it seems a driver's license takes over the ID card role most of the time. I think they should issue an actual ID card, though.

In my native Peru, we do have an ID card called a D.N.I. (Documento Nacional de Identificacion = National Identification Document).
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:27 AM   #36
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having a photograph with a name is no guarantee of an identity.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:47 AM   #37
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Nope. But relatively hard to forge ID-cards are better then nothing.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:51 AM   #38
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Nope. But relatively hard to forge ID-cards are better then nothing.

Okay, my point....

I can go and get an ID card, but what proof is there that I am who I say I am ....
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:09 PM   #39
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Okay, my point....

I can go and get an ID card, but what proof is there that I am who I say I am ....
You will not get an ID card until you have proven that you are who you state you are?
(E.g. you need a previous ID card and/or a registration card / birth certificate)
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:13 PM   #40
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You will not get an ID card until you have proven that you are who you state you are?
(E.g. you need a previous ID card and/or a registration card / birth certificate)

Previous ID card/registration card/birth certificate can be forged .... or misappropriated ....

Short of taking DNA samples at birth - there is NO way anyone can prove who they are.....
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:15 PM   #41
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Okay, my point....

I can go and get an ID card, but what proof is there that I am who I say I am ....
Your ID card will make the right noise when it's flicked.

Seriously.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/20/id_card_reader/
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:17 PM   #42
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Previous ID card/registration card/birth certificate can be forged .... or misappropriated ....
Of course. I know of at least one case where a youth (no kidding) forged an ID card to get a new one. Afterwards he forged a birth certificate to get a completely new registration. Quite astonishing quality of work
Still not easy for the "normal user".

Quote:
Short of taking DNA samples at birth - there is NO way anyone can prove who they are.....
And even then DNA samples are not perfect, I know.
Still its harder to forge an ID - not impossible (and there will never be a perfectly secure version, because you could always change the DNA-database) but harder. And, for most people, simply too hard or too much energy.

And even with a central database - who assures that this database cannot be hacked? Or forged entries placed into it? Or ID-card readers get hacked?
There is no 100% security in life.

-edit: Regarding credit and debit cards we talked about liability .. Well, if I checked your identity with an "official ID card" I am free to believe that you are, who your ID card states you are. Legally this removes quite a lot of liability from me - so I am happy for those ID cards

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Old 05-20-2009, 12:25 PM   #43
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You will not get an ID card until you have proven that you are who you state you are?
(E.g. you need a previous ID card and/or a registration card / birth certificate)

and if one doesn't have these ?

at what point does it become impossible to prove an identity ....
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:38 PM   #44
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and if one doesn't have these ?
Then you are, in all likelihood, not a German by birth You will get a couple of certificates for your birth, some when you are 6, some when you are 16, etc

More serious: You would have to get a copy of those from your birthtown. And in the case that this town doesnt has those IDs any more (e.g. got burned, happens very rarely, but can happen) it gets complicated (e.g. genealogical certificate or certificate of ancestry in combination with birth certificates of your parents, DNA-samples to prove parentage, getting a couple of people to swear an oath that you are who you claim to be in combination with birth registration data from your hospital, etc)by law.

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at what point does it become impossible to prove an identity ....
Somewhere there, yes
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