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Old 05-09-2009, 02:01 PM   #46
thibaulthalpern
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirbruce View Post
I will endeavour to do better; I may have adopted the tone as this is a sore point with me that I'm passionate about. But honestly I think (hope?) the discussion is largely over; anyone can google for information regarding Wikipedia's accuracy and reliability in relation to other sources of reference and decide for themselves.
Anyone who is going to be a good scholar and a good student isn't going to cite Wikipedia or any encyclopedia for their work. Yale University Library has a good few paragraphs on why not to cite Wikipedia. It makes points that I haven't yet pointed out here.

http://www.yale.edu/bass/writing/sou...wikipedia.html

And finally, I don't think it's sensible to engage with sirbruce in his arguments anymore about Wikipedia. He seems merely polemic and argumentative for the sake of being so, rather than engaging in good-faith arguments. To that I gesture with a
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:12 PM   #47
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I think that with a large enough display (and I'm talking 17"+ connected to a laptop) - ebooks could be very useful. My husband, a university professor who writes research papers in English as a second language - absolutely loves using technical ebooks and texts. He annotates the PDFs, has a dictionary open to look up words, writes alternate proofs or whatever and "clips" them to pages and so on. He just bought a second monitor to extend the process.

I'm certain he'd enjoy a portable reader to carry around to classes and such, but it'll have to wait for a larger, flexible design (and sold in Europe!).
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by thibaulthalpern View Post
... Wikipedia is never a credible source of information for writing academic papers because we don't know the expertise of the persons writing the entry and it is not easily traceable where certain information in Wikipedia comes from. In addition, one generally doesn't cite a general encyclopedia (which Wikipedia is) for academic writing whether it is printed or not....

I agree with your last sentence. But I kind of disagree, that Wikipedia is "never" a credible source. Much more often, than not, the information is accurate.

But more importantly, Wikipedia can be a valuable source, as a stepping stone to conducting research on a subject, by providing a basic overview. As you continue your research, you may find that some of the Wikipedia information may not be accurate, or you may disagree with it's bias/conclusions, but it is so with many printed books as well. On the whole, it's a valuable resource for all.

As to research, at least for what I do, digital is much, much better, than dealing with paper volumes. One can search through a large amount of information much faster, can go back and forth among a great number of sources with ease, etc.. But I know that some disagree, and that's fine, for them.

And, the open-source text-books idea sounds good to me. It also does not preclude having editor(s), so I don't see what the problem is.
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:44 PM   #49
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I'm also very spacially oriented when it comes to paper books and can quickly thumb back to find a passage or name in the portion I've already read. They way that eBooks overcome this is through search. If you're using an eBook reader/format that does not support searching, then you're likely to have problems finding the information later.
Duh! I never even tried that! I guess I really do think of ebooks as books - the only way to search is to page thru! Maybe I need to merge my reading and computer skills. Guess my age is showing!
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:14 PM   #50
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Well, spatial memory is not the same as being able to recall a word to search for. Sometimes, I remember the occurrence of an idea but don't remember how the author talked about it. In that case, I may be able to get to that portion of the book spatially quicker than with search which is more of a verbal kind of memory.
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonist View Post
I agree with your last sentence. But I kind of disagree, that Wikipedia is "never" a credible source. Much more often, than not, the information is accurate.
The context of the discussion is using Wikipedia to cite for information (as in "Works Cited" or "Bibliography" page). I'm not talk about it as a source that shouldn't be used to build up ideas about a topic. Those two are vastly different things. And I've mentioned the latter as a good way to use Wikipedia.

Quote:
As to research, at least for what I do, digital is much, much better, than dealing with paper volumes. One can search through a large amount of information much faster, can go back and forth among a great number of sources with ease, etc.. But I know that some disagree, and that's fine, for them.
Let's also not make the logical leap from Wikipedia to thinking that I'm talking about all digital sources, if that is the intention ;-)

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And, the open-source text-books idea sounds good to me. It also does not preclude having editor(s), so I don't see what the problem is.
I never made a comment about open-source textbook as being good or bad. There are a lot of open-source journals if by open-source people mean free. The English Server has long hosted many free open-source journals. Check it out. I used to be part of the department that produced The English Server.

I don't know if all those comments were directed to me, but they seem to be given how you started your post. But I could be wrong.

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Old 05-09-2009, 03:27 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thibaulthalpern View Post
I never made a comment about open-source textbook as being good or bad. There are a lot of open-source journals if by open-source people mean free. The English Server has long hosted many free open-source journals. Check it out. I used to be part of the department that produced The English Server.

I don't know if all those comments were directed to me, but they seem to be given how you started your post. But I could be wrong.
If, as you say, open-source means free then it has a quite different result than if open-source really means open source like it does with software. I guess words mean what I choose them to mean, nothing more and nothing less. I heard that somewhere I think

I would suggest that you not take general comments personally in a forum. This can lead to all sorts of problems that in reality do not exist.

Dale
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:48 PM   #53
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I don't know why you believe this is the case. The citations in Wikipedia are often weblinks are that easier, not harder, to trace than those in a printed text.
Following those links and citing those as references would be fine. Citing Wikipedia itself, which could have been edited five minutes earlier, complete with fake links, is not.

Setting aside the random vandalism and strong biases that pop up occasionally, Wikipedia contains inaccuracies and biases that last until someone notices and corrects them. Citing the page on Pluto is probably reasonably accurate; many people watch to make sure that's up to date. Citing the page on Filk music is more iffy; it fails to even mention songbooks except in its links section. The page on the Feri tradition was written by one person, and reflects his biases, with a few minor changes added by people who disagree strongly. It fails to encompass definitions and variations preferred by Feri initiates who aren't online at all.

(Am I going to fix it? Hell no; I don't need to get into a wiki war about my religion. I don't need for the general public to have much accurate information about my religion, either; the info there isn't exactly wrong as much as it is skewed, and I'm content for it to stay that way. But it's not a good source for an academic paper about Feri, or Modern Neopaganism, or American Witchcraft, or whatever.)
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
If, as you say, open-source means free then it has a quite different result than if open-source really means open source like it does with software. I guess words mean what I choose them to mean, nothing more and nothing less. I heard that somewhere I think
I do not see the problem if it means a GPL or a Creative Commons license. You only need to have version numbers and then the review system will take care of the quality. And the quality will probably be much higher than the quality of locally produced material that are just used in one course which is what is common today.
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
If, as you say, open-source means free then it has a quite different result than if open-source really means open source like it does with software. I guess words mean what I choose them to mean, nothing more and nothing less. I heard that somewhere I think

I would suggest that you not take general comments personally in a forum. This can lead to all sorts of problems that in reality do not exist.

Dale
I'll won't comment directly on the last comment above which makes leaps and bounds as to whether I took something personally (which means taking something directly to heart) versus a comment that was intended for me. Both mean something different.

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Old 05-09-2009, 04:58 PM   #56
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I'm quite happy to admit that anecdotal evidence from my father in law hardly makes for a damning indictment of Wikipedia Unfortunately I don't really have the to time to conduct my own full scale scientific study of the problem. But I will endeavor to look up and read some of the studies that have been done on the issue.

People do seem however to have a general distrust of Wikipedia even if it's not deserved. I guess that all the attention grabbing headlines that pop up frequently, such as this one

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...07/2562940.htm

don't help. You don't see blogs and news sites reporting on how great such and such an article is on Wikipedia because it's so accurate. You only hear about how unreliable it is and how "anyone can edit it", that last point just rings alarm bells in most people's heads.

I'm also sure that Wikipedia will make more and more strides in the coming years and will become more and more acceptable as a source for general academic research. It's certainly a resource I make use of on a daily basis.

As an aside the only reason I got drawn into this argument at all was because this is one of the few forums I read on a daily basis, due in no small part to the unusually high number of intelligent and thoughtful posters (and yes sirbruce I count you as one of those) and I'd hate to see it go downhill as it gets more and more popular. Often some posters just get jaded and tend to post in a more combative and cynical way as time goes on, even if they don't mean to come across that way.

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Old 05-09-2009, 05:16 PM   #57
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The local public school systems here in the DC area do not accept Wikipedia for papers. My kids have been told at both the elementary and secondary levels not to use Wikipedia.
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Old 05-09-2009, 05:25 PM   #58
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I'm quite happy to admit that anecdotal evidence from my father in law hardly makes for a damning indictment of Wikipedia Unfortunately I don't really have the to time to conduct my own full scale scientific study of the problem. But I will endeavor to look up and read some of the studies that have been done on the issue.
One could go the website of almost any university library and do a search for "wikipedia" or "citation" and most of them, if not all, will say do not use Wikipedia (in its current form) as a cited source for scholarly papers. That is, don't use it as a "works cited" unless, as I mentioned previously, you're using Wikipedia as an example of "x", as opposed to an authoritative source. University Librarians and Reference Librarians think and research seriously about how to guide patrons in using materials.

I posted one from Yale University a few posts up.
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Old 05-09-2009, 05:36 PM   #59
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I'm also sure that Wikipedia will make more and more strides in the coming years and will become more and more acceptable as a source for general academic research. It's certainly a resource I make use of on a daily basis.
Wikipedia is certainly used as a general source to read up on various things. But, it is not used for CITING in an academic paper. Big difference. One is talking about in the process of doing research while the other is talking about the process of producing writing.

For one thing, scholars do not generally cite encyclopedias (printed or non-printed versions) at all for their research. Though likely reputable, these sources are too general. Instead, a credible scholar will look at other sources. This is not to say that an encyclopedia won't be used in the process of doing research but it will NOT be used as a source material for the actual writing itself.

Case in point: I'm doing some reading on gossip and rumours as it has been studied by anthropologists. Gossip used to be a hot research topic in anthropology but no longer is the case. Niko Besnier is a contemporary scholars who has revived this topic. He has an encyclopedia entry in an anthropology encyclopedia. I've read that entry and find it useful. He also has a bibliography at the end of his entry. That is what I turn to in step 2 to do further reading. When I write my chapter on gossip in my own fieldsite, I won't be citing the encyclopedia entry but possibly the other sources he lists in addition to others I find.

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Old 05-09-2009, 11:31 PM   #60
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most likely in a pdf like format, for laptop.
Schools are finally moving on to laptops instead of those heavy bookbags filled with books and maps.
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